Learning Tango

[JonD]

Originally Posted by tattie

Has anyone else had any issues with the culture of tango?

Not to any great extent. There does seem to be a strange contradiction - a dance where you have to "open" yourself to your partner and a scene where people can seem "closed" to conversation. Part of it may be that folk are "outside their comfort zone" - and that includes you. We can all be more sensitive to other people's behaviour and less sensitive to their needs in those circumstances.

Firstly, very mixed opinion on whether women are even allowed to ask men to dance.

The convention here in Devon is the same as for MJ - anyone asks anyone. In BsAs it's quite different but we're not in BsAs. We're "Devon Dumplings" and not as sophisticated as them that live in big cities so we don't feel we have to ape the Cabeceo. Our masculine egos aren't so fragile that we are unable to cope with selection and rejection - it must be something to do with the clotted cream. So, ask me to dance anytime you like! (Sorry metropolis dwellers - I couldn't resist).

overheard a comment along the lines of "beginners shouldn't be here"

Was it an intermediate workshop then? Having met Jenny and Ricardo I'd be surprised if they cultivate that sort of behaviour. Have a chat with Jenny if you get a chance and explain how you feel. I bet she'd be horrified. They can't nip that sort of thing in the bud if they don't know about it (and, in any event, it's probably just a couple of plonkers).

I'm about to give up and feel like I'd really be missing out if I did

Please don't give up! It is worth it, I promise. Of course you're really bad at it - you've only just started. Everyone is hopeless at first; I wobbled around like a kid wearing his mum's high heels for months and months. I'm not a huge amount better now. But once you experience that first, amazing, mesmerising connection to the music and your partner you'll never look back.

[Feelingpink]

JonD, I would love to go to the milonga on April 5 (& definitely to dance with you), but I already have something in my diary that evening ... however, have a cunning plan where I may be able to change the existing commitment. At the moment, both are in my diary.

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by tattie

Has anyone else had any issues with the culture of tango? !

You need lots of if you are learning tango

The culture in Tango is different to MJ
but don’t be put off by the odd remark
The reward, when everything clicks makes it all worthwhile
But it is not an easy dance
Learning AT is the most difficult thing I have ever tried to do and like most people on this forum, I have come home disappointed and depressed

As for the lady asking a man asking for a dance. This subject is simply best avoided. Most people will tell you its OK but some people don’t approve

Another thing, refusing a dance seems more common in AT than in MJ, so don’t t take a refusal as an offence

Although dances go in threes at a Milonga. Having only one dance is not unusual at a Practica

How do you get good? I have been going to classes for about 6 moths I do 2- 3 a classes a week and I can now just about get round the floor provided I keep it slow and simple

It’s a difficult dance with no short cuts

But if you read Cee Cee’s posts you will realise its all worth while

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

Thanks for your kind words about my posts. I feel a bit of a fraud because I really don't know much about AT and don't dance it at all well.

Originally Posted by JonD

The cabanes are very basic (cold outside shower, pee bucket, that sort of thing) but warm, dry and comfortable - like camping in an upmarket garden shed! (The house has all mod cons like hot showers and proper toilets). The atmosphere is very relaxed and rather "alternative" - Peggy invites guests to help with the washing up, sweeping the dance floor etc. so that you all feel like a community; while that works for me, I can imagine that some people might be a bit irritated. You tick your name on a list as you take another bottle of wine (the expensive stuff was €5 a bottle last year), help yourself to coffee and tea - you don't need money until you settle the bill at the end of the week. You walk down to the swimming place and will find some people naked and others in swimming costumes; nobody cares either way. Tango Valley is a "place out of time" - there are no pressures apart from those you bring with you. I put everything down - worries, keys, money, mobile - when I arrive and just pick up my dance shoes. You really don't need anything else. We'll be there for weeks 29 and 30 (16th - 29th July) and I can't wait!

Not sure about the cabanes (I've had basic, but in places like remote African or Nepali villages where you don't expect mod cons!). But otherwise I've been on holidays like that - where you are maybe on a rota to wash up, set tables etc. Simple tasks that need done, but if everyone does a bit they don't take long and - this is the point, mean that the organiser can run the holiday at lower cost as they don't have to employ as many people. Plus it does build friendships - when you are working alongside someone washing the pots, you can chat.

Do you have to go with a partner to Tango Valley - or in a group of equal nos male and female?

I think the beginner week will clash with my Spanish holiday, but maybe next year (and the year after BsAs....)

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

Thanks for your kind words about my posts. I feel a bit of a fraud because I really don't know much about AT and don't dance it at all well.

Oops, realised I quoted this last time and didn't add my comments.

What is really great about your posts Jon isn't just the knowledge and learning that you share with us (which is extremely helpful, you were missed on this thread when you were away on holiday!), its also the encouragement. You have been on the journey longer than us and know what we are going through!

Tango can be a frustrating experience at times - and its so good to know that others have been through the same thing. That's what I love about this thread - we are all at different stages and can sympathise with a difficult class or less than positive experience. And cheer one another on when we are learning, progressing, growing.

This forum community encouraged me and helped keep me going through almost 2 years of a MJ wilderness. When my current tango experience halts (for a while only hopefully) in 2 weeks time, this little tango community within this forum will continue to inspire me. My thanks to all.

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Lynn

this little tango community within this forum will continue to inspire me. My thanks to all

It inspires me too and I echo those thanks. When I read some of the bitchiness and "clever dick" remarks on some of the other AT forums like Tango-L it reminds me what a friendly, unpretentious, helpful and encouraging spot this is! Learning AT is a wonderful journey and it's great to be able to share it.

Not sure about the cabanes

They're not quite as basic as all that! They have proper beds, little table and chairs, flowers in vases, sink, running cold water, electric light etc. If you were expecting a hotel room you'd probably be a bit disappointed but I think they're really quite comfortable and homely. We've stayed in "La Luna" the past two years and it's perfect - wonderful view, secluded and quiet; a little refuge in the woods. Chances are that most nights you'll be staggering back to your cabane by torchlight in the wee small hours having drunk too much wine and with sore feet from dancing so a good night's sleep is almost guaranteed.

This little spot in Italy could be an alternative. I don't know anyone who has been there but it looks pretty good!

When my current tango experience halts (for a while only hopefully) in 2 weeks time

We're here for you! After Southport we'll have to set up some LTFGs - there are things like the Tango Mango here in Devon, Tango Tangk in Southampton plus tons of stuff in London (most of which CeeCee will have visited in the past week - I'm in awe of her stamina), Bristol, Edinburgh, Barcelona, Brussels. We'll just have to find a way of keeping costs down. Best of all would be a trip to El Corte in Nijmegen - you'd just love that place! Your classes will start again and don't be afraid of going to a milonga in Dublin - most people are friendly and helpful; think of CeeCee's milonga with cake!

[spindr]

Originally Posted by philsmove

The culture in Tango is different to MJ
but don’t be put off by the odd remark

Might be just as well to make sure that you are following the correct etiquette for milongas? The hints I was given were:

Always travel anticlockwise.

Don't back up -- if you have to dance a basic 8 then make the "step back" a "step in place"

There are two lanes:
The outside lane is the fast lane -- you don't stop in the outside lane.
The inside lane is the slow lane -- you can pause slightly more in the inside lane.

Don't pause too much to create a traffic jam behind you -- allow everyone to keep moving. Keep the whole room dancing, don't be selfish. If the person in front is static too long -- you can politely "tap them on the shoulder".

Entering the floor is like joining a motorway -- you don't join and then stop and hang about -- you get moving with the flow. Otherwise you risk holding everyone else up behind you.

Flashy moves (kicks and flicks) need room -- if there isn't any, then don't dance them. No ballroom tango. No tango fantasia.

Usual floorcraft, hygiene, etc. applies.

SpinDr.

[tattie]

Thank you everyone for your encouragement. Maybe I just need to hang out here a bit more. Reading about other people's experiences has made me think that maybe I would be depriving myself of something I could really enjoy if I let a bit of attitude get in my way... I think I may stick to classes in future and save the milongas for when I know what I'm doing a little bit more. I'll let you know how I get on.....

And the teacher at Southport - I know he was dancing with plenty of beginners, and seemed very friendly, but when I went to ask him, he said he was sitting out, then danced with someone else seconds later. I'm probably being oversensitive. I know these things can happen by accident sometimes. Fortunately a couple of dances with Viktor just after helped me to recover!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

We're here for you! After Southport we'll have to set up some LTFGs - there are things like the Tango Mango here in Devon, Tango Tangk in Southampton plus tons of stuff in London (most of which CeeCee will have visited in the past week - I'm in awe of her stamina), Bristol, Edinburgh, Barcelona, Brussels. We'll just have to find a way of keeping costs down. Best of all would be a trip to El Corte in Nijmegen - you'd just love that place! Your classes will start again and don't be afraid of going to a milonga in Dublin - most people are friendly and helpful; think of CeeCee's milonga with cake!

Thanks, there are rumours of a workshop in April and more Milongas in Newry (about 45 mins drive from me) but I will miss my weekly class.

However weekend visits to London, Bristol, Edinburgh etc are about to become more within my reach - starting a new and better paid (mind you it couldn't feasibly be worse!) job soon.

I have heard the tango scene in Dublin is pretty good (classes every night, several milongas a week, some great visiting teachers). And Dublin is a lovely city for a visit (I worked there for the tourist board for 2 months once). If there are any really good workshops on, anyone fancy a weekend in Dublin? (I can be tour guide!)

[timbp]

Originally Posted by Lynn

anyone fancy a weekend in Dublin? (I can be tour guide!)

Sounds great. can you move it a bit closer to Sydney?

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Lynn

anyone fancy a weekend in Dublin? (I can be tour guide!)

A Bristol Dublin return costs about £20

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by timbp

Sounds great. can you move it a bit closer to Sydney?

Sorry!

Been PMing about Dublin and I'll keep an eye on any really good events coming up - the summer seems to be best time and we could have a weekend with workshops, milonga and some sightseeing/shopping. If I get any details of suitable weekends, I'll start a thread. I could look into accomodation options etc.

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Been PMing about Dublin and I'll keep an eye on any really good events coming up - the summer seems to be best time and we could have a weekend with workshops, milonga and some sightseeing/shopping. If I get any details of suitable weekends, I'll start a thread. I could look into accomodation options etc.

Sounds good to me! I've never been to Dublin.

Originally Posted by Spindr

Might be just as well to make sure that you are following the correct etiquette for milongas?

Good advice! This link might be useful.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by philsmove

A Bristol Dublin return costs about £20

That's cheaper than I can get there by train from Belfast! (about £28 I think - though there is a much cheaper, albeit slower, coach option or I could drive).

[JonD]

We had another really good class last night. I didn't get there in time to join the beginner group but had a couple of dances with some beginner ladies in the 30 minute interval between their class and the Level 2.

We started with some more pivots. This time they were designed to be somewhere between the quick ones we did 2 weeks ago and the slow "sweet" ones we did last week. Ruth explained that this week we were looking for a sort of colgada feel (where the partners lean out slightly against each other to create that sort of centrifugal force feel) without actually opening the embrace.

The first pivot started with a sidestep to the left with the leader placing the toe of his right foot between the followers feet as she closed - it's important not to put too much of your foot into the "sandwich" or it makes the pivot really difficult. The leader places his weight on his right foot and disassociates to his left while placing his left foot, without weight, past the followers feet as if he was taking a step forward - you sort of "sit back" in order not to lead the follower to take a step. (It's as if you "step under" your frame). The leader then transfers weight onto his left foot and pivots clockwise while keeping that "sit back" feel, keeping his right foot just between the followers feet. It's lovely when it works but it's rather difficult to explain and to do! We then extended that so that you led the follower into a barida then the pivot. The follower was led to take a small step backward without weight so that her right foot was just "kissing" the leader's left foot in the pivot. Again very nice but impossible to explain in words.

After that we did a really fun exercise. The followers shut their eyes and held their arms out as if in open embrace but making a big open circle. As the music started we leaders went to a follower, stepped into the embrace and started dancing. The followers had to keep their eyes closed and try to sense who the leader was. We did it a couple of times with different partners then reversed it so the leaders were dancing with their eyes shut. That was interesting and rather lovely - I got Ruth first time and Jan the second (for some reason I can't get Jan to cross so I guessed it was her as soon as I tried to lead one). Fortunately the class is small and the followers were keeping an eye out so there were no collisions!

There are no more Tuesday classes until 9th May as Ruth is being a good mum and taking her daughters on holiday. I'm going to organise some practicas so I can continue to get my Tuesday fix! It's a lovely group with really friendly people and I hope it'll grow in May when some of the beginners move up. We had a chat about that last night and everyone was keen that beginners should join the Level 2 even though it will mean the lessons are less demanding. Poor Ruth can't do a Level 3 class in Exeter as the numbers just don't justify it yet - she'd have to stop doing a class elsewhere to make the time. We were thinking that we might hire a room in the same building and have a practica while the beginner class is on before the Level 2 - but maybe join the beginner class for the last 30 minutes so that the beginners get the chance to do their exercises with more experienced leaders/followers. That might work.

Jacqui and Stephanie, who I learnt have only been dancing since June last year - I thought it was over a year, are just brilliant. They've got a lovely "stillness" in their following. There's no sense that they are thinking about something else as you dance. Some followers feel like they are wondering if they put the cat out and that can be pretty horrible! Four of us went for a late night pizza after the class and it was great to drink wine and chat.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

We then extended that so that you led the follower into a barida then the pivot. The follower was led to take a small step backward without weight so that her right foot was just "kissing" the leader's left foot in the pivot. Again very nice but impossible to explain in words.

You've described it like this somewhere else (can't remember where). When we did baridas in class it was much more of a 'push' by the lead. I was told as a follower to pretend my foot was asleep and I was powerless to move it myself (not by the teacher, by another dancer in the class). It leads to a somewhat uncomfortable, at times unbalanced and definitely undignified move. I know I'm not doing it right.

Originally Posted by JonD

After that we did a really fun exercise. The followers shut their eyes and held their arms out as if in open embrace but making a big open circle. As the music started we leaders went to a follower, stepped into the embrace and started dancing. The followers had to keep their eyes closed and try to sense who the leader was. We did it a couple of times with different partners then reversed it so the leaders were dancing with their eyes shut. That was interesting and rather lovely - I got Ruth first time and Jan the second (for some reason I can't get Jan to cross so I guessed it was her as soon as I tried to lead one). Fortunately the class is small and the followers were keeping an eye out so there were no collisions!

Ooh, that sounds fun! I've done a few 'eyes closed' dances, it helps me to feel the music and the connection and not get distracted.

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Lynn

When we did baridas in class it was much more of a 'push' by the lead.

I've always been taught that a barida is an optical illusion. It looks like the leader is pushing the followers foot with his but, in fact, he just leads the follower to step as normal and keeps his foot gently in contact with hers. In reality I can't quite make it work that way - it helps a lot if the follower keeps a very gentle pressure so that the feet stay together. But it certainly shouldn't look or feel like a judo foot sweep! If you are having to force the follower's foot to move then it's damn difficult to stay on balance and prevent it looking like some kind of demented 3 legged race.

I've done a few 'eyes closed' dances, it helps me to feel the music and the connection and not get distracted.

Julie dances AT with her eyes shut most of the time and I've notice that Stephanie and Jacqui do the same. I wish I could as well but it just gets messy when I try! Sometimes I almost close my eyes and drift with the dance - I'm just aware of the obstructions without focussing on them. Not knowing who you are dancing with is rather liberating - you don't have any of that "expectation" thing. I think my dance with Ruth was much more "free" than if I'd know straight away that I was dancing with teacher!

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by JonD

After that we did a really fun exercise. The followers shut their eyes and held their arms out as if in open embrace but making a big open circle. As the music started we leaders went to a follower, stepped into the embrace and started dancing. The followers had to keep their eyes closed and try to sense who the leader was. We did it a couple of times with different partners then reversed it so the leaders were dancing with their eyes shut. That was interesting and rather lovely - I got Ruth first time and Jan the second (for some reason I can't get Jan to cross so I guessed it was her as soon as I tried to lead one). Fortunately the class is small and the followers were keeping an eye out so there were no collisions!

I don't mean this is any kind of unpleasant way (Far from it, actually. There's not much point in saying what a sensual dance it is if people aren't using their senses.) but wouldn't you be able to tell most partners straight away from smell and touch without actually having to dance a step?

Thanks for the etiquette tips - I would only ever ask people I know fairly well for a dance. In my limited experience of milongas it seems to be expected that ladies must sit there demurely until invited to dance. The upside of this is that the men are particularly considerate and courteous and will deliberately work the room looking out for ladies that have not had the chance to dance much. Given that leaders are in short supply, this seems to work out fairly. It helps to create that civilised and dignified atmosphere that is so different from MJ.

I close my eyes to dance tango at every opportunity, and have started doing this in MJ too, when conditions are safe!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

I've always been taught that a barida is an optical illusion. It looks like the leader is pushing the followers foot with his but, in fact, he just leads the follower to step as normal and keeps his foot gently in contact with hers. In reality I can't quite make it work that way - it helps a lot if the follower keeps a very gentle pressure so that the feet stay together. But it certainly shouldn't look or feel like a judo foot sweep! If you are having to force the follower's foot to move then it's damn difficult to stay on balance and prevent it looking like some kind of demented 3 legged race.

Yep, that's what it looks like and it feels awful!

The week we learnt it, if I moved my foot by myself, the lead I was dancing with would stop and tell me off. He said he had to move my foot. I will try the pressure thing as you have suggested. Thanks.