Learning Tango

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Spot on, there will be people having a go who know less about AT than you, and its fine to stick to simple figures and walking. Not sure if the others will be there, but I will be and I'd love a dance please Gav.

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

Unfortunately, I won't be there (damn being a woman who can't book on her own! )... but definitely ask Lynn - she's lovely I'm hugely jealous. :green-eyed smiley:

I guess there'll be no lurking in the doorway for me then!

I'm kind of expecting the Vincent and Flavia sessions to be packed with people wanting to try it for the first time and especially as it's "them off the telly", so I won't be disappointed if I don't get anything out of those lessons. It's the opportunities to practice what I've learnt so far, in an environment that's slightly less intimidating than a "proper" milonga, that I'm looking forward to.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Gav

It's the opportunities to practice what I've learnt so far, in an environment that's slightly less intimidating than a "proper" milonga, that I'm looking forward to.

Its perfect for that. Definitely a lot less scary than a milonga.

[jive-vee]

I'm very new to this Argentine Tango lark, I've had 4 lessons but am loving it. I'm hoping to pick up a little bit more at Southport but would love the chance to practise if anyone's brave enough to dance with a newbie.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by jive-vee

I'm very new to this Argentine Tango lark, I've had 4 lessons but am loving it. I'm hoping to pick up a little bit more at Southport but would love the chance to practise if anyone's brave enough to dance with a newbie.

Don't worry, I've been at it less than a month too. In fact it's lesson number 7 tonight. You can join me hiding in the corner looking petrified if you like

[jivecat]

Sorry Gav, I won't be at Southport either. But I'd love a tango dance next time I see you at a freestyle.

In my experience practically nothing I've encountered in jive yet is as scary as a milonga where you don't know people. So I wouldn't worry about Southport, save your fear for a TangoMango, say.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I'm getting more and more tempted to try these classes...

If you're not convinced by the easiness, come along because they're entirely free of walking.

[JonD]

Originally Posted by jive-vee

I'm very new to this Argentine Tango lark, I've had 4 lessons but am loving it.

Welcome to the journey! Mike Lavocah teaches in Bath doesn't he? I've met a few AT dancers from Bath and they seem a good crowd - typically for me, I can't remember their names. I do remember dancing a totally insane tanda with a lady from Bath, who I think was called Jocelyn, on the downstairs "Tango Nuevo" floor at Negracha in London.

I think Gav's right not to expect too much from the lessons - they'll be packed. The little AT milongas will make up for it though; there's something really refreshing about having a bunch of people who share your MJ experience with whom you can practice your AT. I think that shared experience makes the atmosphere feel a bit more "forgiving". Plus, in my experience, MJ dancers are generally more friendly than AT dancers.

Have fun and let us know how your classes are going.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

If you're not convinced by the easiness, come along because they're entirely free of walking.

Even better.

All they need to do is to teach long routines and try to flog you shoes, then they'd be Federico clones.

[Gav]

Gav's Lesson #7

My first not so good AT lesson.

The lesson itself was fine, but at Ceroc on Monday I picked up a minor injury. I'm really annoyed about it, because it was a lady who's been dancing about the same time as me, but more often, but she's a hand-bouncing backleader who fails to stay in time with the music. Dancing with her is always difficult, but I make it a rule never to refuse without good reason and I always tell her to let me lead. Anyway, I was in the middle of the man's bit of a catapult and for whatever reason, she decided that yanking on my right hand as I passed under it would be a good idea? It wrenched my back and I had to stop, but I was up and dancing again in no time with no residual pain. It started to hurt on Tuesday night and got worse through Wednesday so that by the time Tango came around, I wasn't sure if I should be doing it.

The beginners lesson

As usual for Wednesdays in Norwich a bit rushed trying to squeeze in the basic skills required for the improvers lesson.
Men over as usual, but not a big issue because it means I get to dance with the lovely Fran and Belinda!
The demo was walking in opposite feet, a cross, giro and walking out again. As it happens we didn't even get as far as the giro!
Seems I roll my shoulders too much when I walk (must be the Army marching swagger ) so I can work on that.
Starting on a side step and going into opposite feet with a quick weight change seemed simple enough.
Then the dreaded cross!
Now here is where I need help from you guys. The teacher's explanation and his partner's (Belinda) help in practice was fine, but when I practiced with Fran, she seemed to be telling me something different, I think .
The teacher (whose name escapes me) taught; walking in opposite feet, as you step on the left - disassociate chest right (open the chest as they put it), straightening the chest as you step right (before the lady has her weight on her right) leads the cross.
Does that sound about right?

I had to make my excuses and leave after the beginners class because all the disassociation wasn't helping my back. So no improvers class and no Ceroc afterwards!

[jive-vee]

Originally Posted by JonD

Welcome to the journey! Mike Lavocah teaches in Bath doesn't he? I've met a few AT dancers from Bath and they seem a good crowd - typically for me, I can't remember their names. I do remember dancing a totally insane tanda with a lady from Bath, who I think was called Jocelyn, on the downstairs "Tango Nuevo" floor at Negracha in London.

I think Gav's right not to expect too much from the lessons - they'll be packed. The little AT milongas will make up for it though; there's something really refreshing about having a bunch of people who share your MJ experience with whom you can practice your AT. I think that shared experience makes the atmosphere feel a bit more "forgiving". Plus, in my experience, MJ dancers are generally more friendly than AT dancers.

Have fun and let us know how your classes are going.

Hi and thanks, yeah it is Michael teaching in Bath - he seems quite a character which makes for an entertaining lesson, I've not had a dance with him yet though.

Gav, if you fancy venturing onto the floor I'd be willing to give it a go (really can't promise to get anything right though haha). I'm hoping it will be easier to get dances at Southport - I'm not really sure of the "rules" at practicas yet, can anyone ask anyone or would they say no?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by jive-vee

I'm hoping it will be easier to get dances at Southport - I'm not really sure of the "rules" at practicas yet, can anyone ask anyone or would they say no?

Southport is more of a mini milonga than a practica. I get the impression its often preferable, to go to a practica with a partner.

I don't ask for dances in AT - but then I'm shy anyway. I have discovered that if you have a few nice dances with someone you can 'connect' with them across the dance floor with a look. I aim for that look to convey 'I'd quite like to dance with you, come and ask me please'. I began to try this at an AT weekend I went on and have also tried it at MJ.

At MJ events, if I want an AT dance I sometimes say 'can I have a tango dance at some stage?' then leave it open for the man to come and ask me. I even did this with the tango teacher at Scarborough - when I'd been doing AT all of 3 weeks!

However I think it would be perfectly acceptable to ask for an AT dance at the Southport mini milongas, and I have done so.

[David Bailey]

Monday, 29th Jan, The Dome

Another technique class with Kicca.

I have to say I admire everyone who runs technique classes - they're definitely a labour of love, in that so few people seem to be interested in technique you can't make much money from them. Compare with Federico, who has a booming teaching business, but who teaches moves and patterns and not actual dancing...

So, to the Techniquers!

Anyway, Monday's class was the usual: posture, weight transfer, steps and pivots. With pivots, according to Kicca, the shoulders start the turn very early on, and this kind-of "pulls" the legs around. It's very difficult to drive turns with the lats, and not use the hips.

[JonD]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It's very difficult to drive turns with the lats, and not use the hips.

Lats? I don't appear to have those. I'm sure I had stomach muscles once but they seem to have vanished. Oh Lord, I'll have to start doing sit-ups again.

Saturday was fun. It started with a "men only" workshop with Augusto and Miguel, who run the only gay milonga in BsAs. There were about 30 guys there, half from the "normal" AT community and half from a local gay group. It worked really well with no tension between those of different sexual orientations; I'd secretly been a bit nervous about the whole thing although I'm not homophobic and don't normally have a problem about dancing with men - unless they have beards, and that's a comfort thing! Sadly, the class was very basic as there were a number of guys who'd only had a couple of classes. I had hoped to get some feedback from Augusto and Miguel on my leading but, despite leading a tanda with Miguel, that didn't happen. I did dance as a follower for most of the class which was pretty difficult, given that I'm a lousy follower and most of the leaders were at a very early stage of the "journey".

We had a milonga in the evening which was open to everyone. It was great to see so many new faces; guys from the workshop and people from North Devon, Plymouth and sundry other places. It's great the the "new crop" of beginners are starting to come along to milongas and that the atmosphere is so welcoming and inclusive. I had some lovely dances; I've been making an attempt to get a couple of tandas with ladies I don't normally dance with as well as some of my more regular partners. I also had loads of lovely tandas with Julie although she was complaining of feeling like a heffalump because she was wearing the semi-closed toe shoes I made her buy in BsAs. She really doesn't like them even though they look good!

Augusto and Miguel did a performance for us and were just amazing. I think Miguel trained as a ballet dancer - certainly his strength, balance and technique suggested that. Because they're both strong guys as well as being excellent dancers means they can do things that most mixed gender couples could never attempt - you should have seen some of the lifts!

Julie and I have been working on colgadas a bit at MJ dances over the past couple of weeks. We've booked a hall for next Sunday so we can really practice them, and also to get back into the habit of having practice sessions. We've got a busy time coming up with the Mango, then the Tribe, then a workshop with Eric in London, then the Brussels Tango Festival so we need to have some "consolidation time".

[David Bailey]

So, anyone want to give a Tango-flavoured review of the Southport experience? Class / Milongas?

[Gav]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So, anyone want to give a Tango-flavoured review of the Southport experience? Class / Milongas?

Errr, I can give my confession...

Friday night. Too caught up in the amazing atmosphere and awesome dancing in the Blues room. I forgot about the Milonga until too late.

Saturday. Beginners AT with Vincent and Flavia. I went for a look and decided it was far too packed to learn anything useful, so I watched instead. Glad I did because it was clearly designed to get people doing something interesting so they will go away and look for classes.

Saturday night. Had a poorly friend to keep company. I know they wouldn't have minded if I'd nipped out for a Tango, but that's not my style.

Sunday. Again, watched the Improvers lesson from Vincent and Flavia. Mmmm, watched all the people who'd only ever done the beginners lesson yesterday really struggling with the improvers. Again decided to watch and enjoy.

Sunday night. Last chance for a Milonga... and I fell asleep and missed it! A poor cop out I know and I was gutted. At least when a Tango track came on in the Blues room I managed to demonstrate to Dizzy how truly awful I am!

On a related matter, I think that Vincent and Flavia were teaching the "basic 8" or something similar in the beginners class and I mentioned to someone (no names or apologies, I'm just trying to understand this better) that it'll make things interesting in the Milonga if people are in there who don't even know how to walk properly.
After some discussion we established that I've never been taught the basic 8, but have concentrated on walking and so far have only led backward ochos and giros.
The problem is that they were shocked that I'd never been taught it and were of the opinion that it reflected badly on my teachers because you can't do anything with the basic 8.
Now I'm really confused because I was really happy that I could walk well, with good intention, smoothly cross myself to go from parallel to opposite feet and back, maybe through in the occasional backward ochos and giros.
Is that wrong?
Am I missing essential skills because I've never been taught the basic 8?

Please help.

(a rapidly decreasing in confidence Gav)

[Bluey]

All Ive heard about so far from people who have been to last weekend Southport is that Flavia & Vincent were not only fantastic in their class & cabaret but were really nice people and danced with modern jivers at night!! Roll on next week 13th when they are at LeRoc Dorking, can't wait

[JonD]

Originally Posted by Gav

Am I missing essential skills because I've never been taught the basic 8?

No, not in my opinion. The basic 8 is just an exercise that comprises (ignore the back step), a side step left, walking outside parallel, a cross, walking inside parallel and a side step right. It's no big deal; a useful exercise for practice purposes but no more than that. You are being taught the foundations of social dancing; to walk, to lead ochos and develop them into giros. You've also been introduced to the cross. You've covered all the elements contained in the basic 8 already so I wouldn't worry about it at all. The things you mention about leading walks, changing from inside to outside, leading ochos are the key basic skills and you're heading in the right direction. Reading your posts makes me think that you've got really good teachers who are giving you an excellent foundation (and having met Rachel I know I'm right).

I walk the basic 8 in my living room sometimes, using it to work on taking each step smoothly, arriving in my axis as I complete the step, being grounded, practicing my disassociation etc.. Julie does the same in her kitchen, but backwards and in high heels. We could easily do the same with any other pattern of steps.

Too often the basic 8 is taught as a "move" for use in social dancing. That leads to all sorts of problems - ladies "crossing on 5" without being led to do so, people trying to lead it at milongas without reference to the position of other dancers around them and so on. I do wish people would forget the idea of "moves" in AT; every element of every step is lead and followed. We learn figures as a means to learn about technique and possibilities. Sure, we all dance our favourite figures at milongas when there is space - I'm as guilty of that as the next person but I also know that I need to learn to adapt the figure so I can use its elements in loads of different circumstances and combinations as the music, my partner and the space around me suggests.

Shame you missed all the milongas Gav - still there's always June! I'm going to try and go to the next Southport as I suffered withdrawal symptoms last weekend (a big gang of great people went up from Exeter) but I'll have to wait until my business partner books her holiday before I can confirm. It sounds as if Vincent and Flavia were great and I'd have loved to have seen Animaltalk's face when he got his birthday present.

[David Bailey]

Ooh, a Basic 8 discussion, we haven't had one of those for a while

Originally Posted by Gav

{ basic 8 stuff }
Now I'm really confused because I was really happy that I could walk well, with good intention, smoothly cross myself to go from parallel to opposite feet and back, maybe through in the occasional backward ochos and giros.
Is that wrong?
Am I missing essential skills because I've never been taught the basic 8?

IMO: No, and no.

In a Massive Weekender Class(TM), you have to teach a pattern, and you may as well use the Basic 8. It's the only thing you can teach in that environment.

It's improssible to try to teach technique to 200+ people; amd with the best will in the world, most of the people at a weekender won't be up to it even if you could.

I didn't learn the Basic 8 until I'd been tango-ing for 6 months - and even then, only because like you I felt I might be missing something out. I wasn't, it turned out.

Having said that, I'm a big fan of the Basic 8 if used well - as a structure on which you can build, basically ( ). And for non-tangoers, it "eases you in" by giving the illusion of learning patterns. But it's certainly not essential, and IMO it shouldn't be used in freestyles.

EDIT: Darn, JonD beat me to it

[Lynn]

Gav - we didn't get an AT dance!

Originally Posted by Gav

Am I missing essential skills because I've never been taught the basic 8?

The basic 8 is an easy option for teachers who want to retain beginners by not giving too much technique and giving a move. Some people don't like to spend their first few classes just walking. IMO the teachers who focus on lots of walking often are giving you a better foundation, even if it feels like slower progress.

The basic 8 as a teaching tool is fine, and in a large class gives people some 'shape' to build on, but I'm not a massive fan when it isn't explained that its just that and people think its a 'basic step' (the name itself can lead to that) that they need to build all their social dancing around. You're not missing anything by not having learnt it.

Southport
I didn't do the classes - I was going to try the first as a lead, but then things would get confusing in the rotation and I'd have to stand there saying 'I'm a man!'... so I observed - loved the little demo at the end - missed even watching the rest as I decided to focus on WCS mostly for the weekend. (I know, heretic...)

Milongas - really rusty at first - I did improve a little (I think!) as the evenings went on and danced with some less experienced dancers - esp one man who seemed to love that I followed what he led (isn't that the point?).

Had a dance on the first evening where myself and partner were very un-AT like and spent a lot of the dance propping each other up as we giggled helplessly.

It was a good 'refresher' - not having done any AT since the beginning of Nov - I went to all three milongas and spent most of the time dancing.