Learning Tango

[philsmove]

Hello from Bristol – were it’s the start of the Bristol Balloon Fester
Remember once you have leant to lead the cross the really difficult thing is NOT to lead the cross

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by JonD

It's great to hear that the journey continues for everyone - I thought you'd all given up!

I have, sort of. But only for a while. Frustrating last year I took every opportunity I could to do AT, which usually meant travelling a fair bit, and now there is a class less than an hour away and I'm not at it!

Tim - common problem, you will get it resolved over time as Jon said.

CeeCee - sounds wonderful. Those moments make it all so worth it, don't they?

Jon - glad your holiday was good, hope your ear clears up soon.

I will get back to AT - soon I hope!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JonD

Yippee, we're back! (DJ, that was some senior moment. I worry about you).

Well, I could claim it was all part of some cunning ploy to get everyone to post on this thread.

(What I can't believe is that no-one mentioned it for nearly two months...)

Originally Posted by JonD

send the energy of the step into the floor, through her right foot, rather than thinking "up" (which is what I did for years - I thought a slight "lifting" sensation helped the lead but it doesn't).

I've been doing that too - but by private with Kicca on Monday cured me of that, hopefully.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Well, I could claim it was all part of some cunning ploy to get everyone to post on this thread.

(What I can't believe is that no-one mentioned it for nearly two months...)

I mentioned it as soon as I noticed, I just haven't done any tango recently so wasn't posting here and hadn't noticed. Glad I did mention it though, I love this thread!

[Raul]

Originally Posted by timbp

MY current problem is still with leading the cross.

one element not yet mentioned in the replies above, is the size of the steps leading to the cross. i think that the leader takes a small step then a big one and the second step gives the momentum for the follower to cross. also if there is space created between the dancers it makes it easier for the follower to cross and to answer your original point she would have to cross in front rather than at the back. i sometimes try the tiniest lift and "in between and to the left movement" with my right arm, it helps but the experienced followers find this unnecessary and you can overdo it.

my own weakness when walking on the outside left, is to drift towards the left rather than walk 'through' the follower. this is apparently a very common beginner mistake - overcautious in avoiding her right foot - and this sideways motion brings surprise crosses with the added complication that consequently my next step forces the follower to do double time! oops! again!

[CeeCee]

Originally Posted by JonD

If it's any comfort, leading crosses traumatised me for about a year and I don't think I really got the technique until I'd been dancing AT about 4 years!

It is a comfort to hear that Jon, helps us to persevere, as we know we’re not alone.
Is it worth it?
The ‘moments’ make it worth it.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It doesn't help that there seem to be 542 ways of teaching the cross

Perhaps Tango teachers do it on purpose. Have they developed a kind of rolling programme of confusion to keep us searching for the mystery of the cross? Most of us are clearly suckers for punishment otherwise why are we still here?

Originally Posted by philsmove

Hello from Bristol – were it’s the start of the Bristol Balloon Fester
Remember once you have leant to lead the cross the really difficult thing is NOT to lead the cross

Ooh Phil, tango in a hot air balloon! Now there’s an idea .

Originally Posted by Lynn

I will get back to AT - soon I hope!

Yep, hope so!

Originally Posted by JonD

It's great to hear that the journey continues for everyone - I thought you'd all given up!

It was weird because when I saw the thread closed a little part of me did want to give up. Strange huh?
I feel much much better now that normal service has been resumed.

[CeeCee]

I got a bit jarred off at my rojoynegro class for the last couple of weeks because people were starting to pair off, on and off the dance floor. New relationships make possession and rotation a bit tricky. Never mind that seems to have just been a phase. The dynamics were much improved yesterday, it was a fun night again.

Anyway, last night at Bianca’s class we worked on the inimitable giro, which is an ongoing project. The giro and its many variants continue to amuse and amaze. As Bianca says we’ll never learn how to do them all or ever be perfect as there are too many ways to make mistakes.

My question is…

if the half giro is called a ‘media luna’, then why isn’t a full giro called a ‘luna’?

[JonD]

I've reached an interesting point in my journey. Some of my experiences this year have convinced me that I really need to reconsider some of my attitudes to how I dance - both AT and MJ.

Over the past few years I've been certain that it's vital to master the fundamentals of technique (lead; balance; how to take a step etc.) and focus on the feeling of the dance (connection with my partner, in a more than physical sense; musicality; expression; listening to the follower etc.) rather than build a repertoire of movements. As a consequence, I've barely added to my MJ vocabulary in the last 3 years and I've only just started to play with rear sacadas and ganchos in AT. It's not that I haven't done plenty of figures or "moves" in classes, it's that I haven't really thought of them as things to use in my social dancing; they've been interesting exercises through which I've learnt new techniques and polished other ones. I'm beginning to think that I now need to concentrate on using these figures more in the dance, to be more daring with movements to express the music particularly when dancing with followers I'm not familiar with.

I was dancing after a class given by Jose Vazquez in Bristol a couple of months ago - Jose was dancing alongside and called over "Jon, do you want some ganchos?" as he demonstrated some spectacular movements that would cripple my partner if I attempted them. I laughed and said that I'd never done a gancho on my partner but it made me think that I really ought to learn these things. Perhaps I've been too focussed on the fundamentals and need to "lighten up", take some more risks and generally extend myself rather than taking such a step-by-step approach. (By the way, Jose is a really good teacher and I'm planning to do a series of privates with him when he gets back from BsAs next month. His command of English isn't great but I've got huge respect for his teaching and his dancing. Nice guy too.)

That feeling was reinforced in Tavira. For my money, the best teachers were Leandro Oliver and Laila Rezk (before any nuevo fans get on my case, Ezequiel Farfaro & Eugenia Parilla were bloody good too, as was Pablo Inza). Leandro & Laila are principle dancers with Tango Por Dos so you can imagine the kind of stuff they can casually throw into their dance - just fantastic! They introduced each class with an exhortation NOT to simply learn the figure; the aim was to learn the technique that made the figure possible. But what figures - elegant, not overly complex, but expressive and creating beautiful lines. (In the first class we did with them Leandro said "We'll start with something simple then build it up"; he demonstrated the "simple" bit and my heart sank into my boots. But with clear teaching and sensible progression it all turned out fine).

I like being complimented on my technique - a follower said that I had "such smooth feet" at the last milonga I danced at and I positively glowed. But, I'm beginning to feel that I make the same kind of movements all the time in AT - something I've felt about my MJ for a good while. As I say, it's not that I don't know loads of "moves" in both dances (at Nelson's last MJ coaches day we ran through the 128 moves on his "moves cards" in about 55 minutes, including mini-aerials, drops and such like so I clearly have them in my muscle memory. On that basis I must have 500+ MJ moves somewhere in my memory banks but I don't seem to be able to access them when I'm actually dancing). Now I think I need to focus on using and adapting more of them; I need to have the option to to inject some real "fire" into my dance. I want to get to that stage where followers say to themselves "That was amazing. I don't know how I did that; his lead made it inevitable".

The journey continues ... will I become a "move monster"?!

[philsmove]

Bajofondo Tango Club are playing at the Colston Hall Bristol 19 Oct

Has any heard them or heard of them

[timbp]

Two weeks after I started seriously learning tango, I danced at my first milonga last night.

I didn't dance a lot -- 4 or 5 tandas (or part tandas) over 4 hours, and with only 3 people. But it was a fantastic relaxed atmosphere, beautiful music, and friendly people.

Not a huge number of people, about 25. That meant I didn't have to stress about floorcraft, but didn't feel able to hide in the crowd when I ventured onto the floor.

I loved the music -- which is good, as that's one of my main motivations for learning the dance. They played mostly traditional tangos, some modern tangos (Gotan Project and similar), and some other stuff (Pink Martini was the only one I recognised).

I like this dance!

Off now to get ready for my tango class...

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by philsmove

Bajofondo Tango Club are playing at the Colston Hall Bristol 19 Oct

Has any heard them or heard of them

Absolutely - I've also got the album, it's great. Nuevo tango stuff, quite clubby.

[timbp]

So what have I actually been learning these past 2 weeks?

Jairo and Amy.

These are Nicole's favourite teachers. (Nicole is friend who started tango about 4 months ago, and has been pestering me to be her tango practice partner for about 5 months.)

Class is about 10-15 minutes on walking, with an emphasis on keeping it natural. Don't try to walk like a dancer, just walk naturally but with attention to posture.

Then they show a figure, break it down, teach it, let us practise for the rest of the hour while they come around and help, occasionally bringing the class together to explain something that a few people are having problems with. I've had very little attention from them; Nicole says that means I'm doing it right.

Saturday's figure was giro with sacadas (I think; I'm still getting to grips with the terminology). I found it difficult because the girls kept rushing ahead of my lead, finishing a step while I was still taking it. I thought maybe I was leading them but stepping too slowly myself, but it worked when I tried it with Amy. Her only comment was I was too tentative about the sacada. Which I'm sure is true. Partly I'm worried that if I start moving too confidently, rather than thinking about every part of the movement, I'll start doing the dance I'm confident in (MJ) instead of AT.

Classes have plenty of jokes and laughter. We are expected to listen when the teachers are talking, but they expect us to have fun.

Anne-Maree
My favourite teacher. I hadn't intended to go to her classes as I thought they were too far and parking would be too hard. But Nicole insisted she wanted to try them (Nicole doesn't have a car, and getting there by public transport was too hard). So I went, but Nicole didn't (friend in hospital the first week, then an old back injury aggravated by beginner MJ leaders the second week). Now she says she probably doesn't want to go, because from my description of the classes Anne-Maree's explanations are too different to Jairo and Amy's.

According to her website, Anne-Maree only has a maximum of 12 people in the class. In fact, it's more like 12 couples. But she gives a lot of personal attention to everyone. Class starts with walking, forward around the room, then backward around the room, then in embrace around the room.
Then she demonstrates a figure, explains the lead, where we are stepping, then she does it with each person in the class. Once she's satisfied everyone can do it well enough, she puts the music on, let's us dance, and she comes around to everyone, giving tips or help as needed.

She explains the lead-follow in terms of the leader making or removing space, and the follower stepping into available space, rather than in terms of centre or chest. The followers in this class seem to be more sensitive to the lead than the followers in the other classes. Could this be part of why?

At one stage last week, all we men were told to block our ears. The women were told to activate their core, starting from the pelvic floor. The explanation was summed up by one student as "women should concentrate on not peeing on the dancefloor".

At the end of last week's class, Anne-Maree said she had decided to close the class to newcomers as she wanted to keep us progressing as a group. We are now offiicially the "Advanced Beginner" class, which I think can be shortened to "Advanced".

Mimi and Teddy
These are the teachers closest to where I live, and I am doing their 6 week beginner course. It is based on the Basic 8. As it is a course, all the people came into it with no previous tango experience, so I am finding it less satisfying than the other classes. Still, it is good to have one series of classes that does assume nothing, and I have picked up some points that haven't been mentioned in the other classes. Nevertheless, I doubt I'll continue with them after the 6 weeks.


One of my major worries is when I look around the class. When I see some of the men, I have to think, "These weirdos are the sort of men who learn tango. I am a man learning tango..."

On the other hand, I'm looking forward to finding out if there's any truth in the story that some of the women sleep with the guys just to keep them as practice partners.

Oh, and at the milonga on Friday, my partners crossed about 90% of the times I intended them to, and never crossed when I didn't intend them to.

[Raul]

Originally Posted by timbp

Oh, and at the milonga on Friday, my partners crossed about 90% of the times I intended them to, and never crossed when I didn't intend them to.

Result!

[timbp]

Very tired -- been doing too much. thought about skipping tango, but...it's tango!

Teacher: "Is it working?"
Me: "I know what I'm trying to do, but my balance is off tonight. I can hardly keep my balance standing alone on two feet."
Teacher: "Don't worry. We all have off nights."
Teacher to class: "Tonight we're going to try a barrida."
[Explanation, demonstration]
Me [silently]: "I just told you my balance is off, and you want me to do that?"

Two things I have to unlearn

A compliment on my lead?

Partner: "Can you try to stop using your hand to lead?"
Me: "Was I doing that? Sorry. I've had a couple of years learning to lead with the hand on my partner's back."
Partner: "You learned well. It's a really small, subtle movement, and it's giving me a really clear lead. But you're not supposed to be doing it in tango, and it's distracting me from following your chest."

I guess I need to do more push-ups and bench presses until girls cannot possibly be distracted from my chest.

What's a circle?

My MJ teachers: "The follower always has right of way. Lead her in a straight line, and get out of her way. I don't want to see her curving around you."

My salsa teachers: "Step to the side and lead the follower in a straight line past you. I don't want to see her going around you."

My WCS teachers: "Step to the side to open the slot so the follower can travel in a straight line past you. I don't want to see her going around you."

Tango teacher: "You're not leading the girl around you enough. Think about leading her on the circumference of a circle."

Circumference? Circle? Where's my dictionary?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by timbp

Partner: "Can you try to stop using your hand to lead?"
Me: "Was I doing that? Sorry. I've had a couple of years learning to lead with the hand on my partner's back."

Yes, I do that too

Originally Posted by timbp

Tango teacher: "You're not leading the girl around you enough. Think about leading her on the circumference of a circle."

This one's a bit more subtle I think.

When leading a giro (I presume that's what you were doing?), you can have the follower walk around you, as long as you make space for the follower to do so, or you can both rotate around a central axis. But you need to be clear as to which one you're doing.

I assume your teacher is referring to the first case, but possibly you're doing the second? Or, possibly, like me, you need to work on opening up the space for her to walk round you - it's much harder than it sounds. Which sums up AT in general, of course

[timbp]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

When leading a giro (I presume that's what you were doing?)

No, it was actually the barrida, from a backward ocho, sweeping the foot between us while leading her into a side step to my right. She kept getting too far away because I wasn't leading her around me.

Or, possibly, like me, you need to work on opening up the space for her to walk round you -

That's it! I'm constantly being told to rotate my chest more and open more space for the follower.
And when I concentrate on rotating further, I tend to lean downwards.

But last week during a MJ dance, I was just playing around. I don't know what I did, but I froze for a break perfectly balanced on one foot with almost 270 degrees between hips and shoulders, so I know I'm physically capable of dissociating.

it's much harder than it sounds. Which sums up AT in general, of course

It ought to be easy.

Improvisational, lead-follow partner dance, basic step being a walk -- sounds like a dance that is marketed as being the easiest to learn.

[JonD]

A couple of thoughts that I hope might be useful.

Originally Posted by timbp

No, it was actually the barrida, from a backward ocho, sweeping the foot between us while leading her into a side step to my right. She kept getting too far away because I wasn't leading her around me.

To be fair, it's quite common for followers not to pivot enough on a backward ocho and end up stepping "away from the circumference" - very common in fact! It's something followers really have to work at. Try thinking of "sucking" her working leg in towards you with your stomach as she finishes the ocho; for some reason that seems to work. Don't do it before she's started the pivot and is committed to a backward ocho though or you'll end up with one seriously confused follower.

That's it! I'm constantly being told to rotate my chest more and open more space for the follower.
And when I concentrate on rotating further, I tend to lean downwards.

Yup - and leaning downwards closes your chest making the whole thing even more difficult. It's important to stay upright and in your own axis and that means keeping your head up as well. Another visualisation trick that I found helpful was to imagine that you're sweeping a path clear for her with your arm (obviously, not hauling her round with your arm; more like you would if you were sweeping a tree branch, or cobwebs or something that doesn't give much resistance, out of the way to clear her path. The arm is only moving as an extension of your torso but the image seems to help). That works with either arm but I find it more useful when working into the closed side of the embrace as it's so very easy to close off the space with your chest or shoulder.

The person on the outside of any rotational movement must ensure that they move their body round the circumference of a circle centred on their partner. Imagine that you are walking round your follower, who is pivoting on one foot. If you take a step and then move your body on a direct line between your two feet as you transfer weight you will "cut the corner" - your body will come closer to your follower and push her off her axis. It's important to think of moving your body round the circumference so that it remains an equal distance from the follower's axis at all times. Julio Balmaceda teaches that you should try to keep your back against an imaginary cylinder and to do that you need to think of using your lower back muscles; I'm still trying hard to master that technique and don't hold your breath waiting for me to get it! Thinking of "pushing" the rotational movement from your outside shoulder, rather than "pulling" it with the inside shoulder is good but the outside shoulder must be relaxed and open rather than pinched in, if you know what I mean.

It all makes so much sense ... why is it all so deliciously difficult?!