Learning Tango

[rubyred]

OHHHHH I have so got the bug again. After a looooong gap of any formal tango lessons I went me myself and I to my first tango lesson in a rather overdue period of time to Tango Cheshire on Thursday night in Wilmslow and was so blown away by the experience. The teacher Attila teaches not just about the patterns but she gets you to look at the expression in your body and movement to the music. Women/followers we have so much to give and express. I feel inspired to continue and take this dance into my soul, it is sexy and romantic, I have not felt this since my ''watermelon'' moment when I went to my first MJ night. I decided to go into the improvers class thinking..well the ochos.. the heros..the sandwhich.. yea I can do that but let me tell you I need to revisit all those areas and learn how to isolate the vaious parts of me that shouldn't be moving at the same time. I am back on the road to tango and just want to learn how to be expressive as the follower in a dance that is so lead dominated. WOW

[Feelingpink]

How lovely that you've found a place right for you - like the sound of the lessons. There is tango music & a demo at Dulwich Picture Gallery tonight (with Argentinian wine) - tango in an art gallery - I've died & gone to heaven.

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by rubyred

. I am back on the road to tango :

What is it about tango, even when you go astray, you are always drawn back

[rubyred]

Originally Posted by philsmove

What is it about tango, even when you go astray, you are always drawn back

I know what you mean, maybe it's the passion, the challenge for a follower, the connection with the leader, the chance to learn not only a dance but feel the dance and the music and let the magic work for you. It's also hard work and my brain was hurting after Thursday, it made me aware that I was alive.

[David Bailey]

The Dome, Tuesday 16th October
ANother class with Damian and Kicca - Kicca took a bit more of the teaching tonight, so we focussed on technique even more.

Tuesday's Handy Hints from Kicca are:

• Let your feet walk "round" - i.e. smoothly going from heel to toe or vice versa.
• Push off from the back foot when walking forwards

My Handy Hint is, when rotating your follower, do it as two separate stages - rotation then sidestep. If you try to pull her round and rotate, you'll pull her off balance. Something to bear in mind when doing molinetes etc.

Negracha, Friday 19th October
Having herar that the intermediates class would be on Milonga, I decided to give that a miss and did the basics class instead. In hindsight, judging from the comments of people who did the milonga, this may have been a mistake. Oh well...

Ivan's a fantastic teacher, he's patient and he's very good at providing layered explanations so there's somethign for everyone. The classes have changed format - there are two in succession, from 7:30 - 8:30 and 8:30 - 9:30. I was expecting a single class from 7:30 - 9, so I was flagging a bit towards the end. However, it's great value for money, and I got to practice dissociation - to the point where Ivan told be I was dissociating too much - that's a first!

The milonga afterwards was excellent - I got in about 90 minutes of good dancing, before the demographics of the dancers changed - getting more and more experienced dancers arriving as time went on, thus more and more intimidating. There were a couple of women there who were spectacular, in every sense - proper professional dancers, unbelievably good .

It's something to aim for.

[David Bailey]

The Dome, Tuesday 23rd October

Another lesson with Damian and his partner the lovely Kate (sporting a nice pair of CiFs, I must say Damian's so promiscuous - he's teaching a class at Negracha with yet another woman on Friday. When's he going to settle down, that's what I want to know.

Anyway, this week we did the Ocho Cortado - yay! - I've been trying to get this one down for about a year now.

As is usual with Damian's classes, we covered the form first, getting the movements right. We then worked on the technique, ensuring that we could try to lead it.
And finally we worked on the rhythm - fitting the single / double-time rhythms of the steps to the music.

Once we'd had a go at that, we worked on the same move from the other side, which was challenging but not impossible.

But then, we did "reverse-roles" versions of the move (from either side), which was pretty much impossible.

Reverse roles is not "man following" - hah, if only it were that simple. It's when the man does the follower's steps, and the woman does the leader's steps - but, and this is the key point, the man is still leading. So the man has to lead the woman to do the leader's steps - which is much more difficult than it sounds

As always, I had to force myself up off the sofa to get to the class. And as always, I was very glad to have done so by the end of the evening.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by philsmove

What is it about tango, even when you go astray, you are always drawn back

I've been thinking about this myself. It's like the line in the Godfather III - "Just when I thought that I was out ... they pull me back in."

For various reasons, I had a Tango Hiatus over the summer - I did some salsa, some MJ, but no AT classes or practicas. Now, I'm getting back into the flow - over the past week I've done 3 classes and a Milonga, and I also have semi-regular practicas lined up. So, I'm back in the game.

Why is it so addictive? God know, I still don't like the music much, the scene is less than friendly, the dance itself is fiendishly difficult... I guess the bottom line is that this feels more like "real" dancing than anything else I've ever done.

[rubyred]

the scene is less than friendly,

I have found there tends to be a hierarchy amongst Tangueros. Some are far more discriminatory about who they dance with, preferring to dance with the better dancers. Men have commented to me that the better women dancers are not particularly patient or nice to men who are struggling to learn. I'm afraid I just give a laugh when I make a mistake, and don't beat myself up about it anymore. I am learning and you need a sense of humour to get you through.

I have just enrolled to do a workshop on Saturday and the organiser practically interviewed me over the telephone about my level of dancing, they didn't want beginners because it would hinder the learning of the other members, which I suppose is fair enough. Then who had been my teachers and where did I usually dance. She was fine when I gave the information, although I did detect a little nervousness that I had only recently returned to Tango properly after a gap of a couple of years. There did appear to be a threshold that I had to cross before I was totally accepted.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Why is it so addictive? God know, I still don't like the music much, the scene is less than friendly, the dance itself is fiendishly difficult... I guess the bottom line is that this feels more like "real" dancing than anything else I've ever done.

In Japanese there's a concept called "Shibumi". Loosely speaking it means there's no need to pimp up a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost. It has an innate elegance of it's own. For me tango embodifies this concept; 'tis a thing of beauty

[JonD]

Originally Posted by rubyred

Men have commented to me that the better women dancers are not particularly patient or nice to men who are struggling to learn.

I have to say that I agree that many tangueras are positively unpleasant to men who are struggling to learn. However, I would say that the vast majority of them aren't "better women dancers"; they're not beginners but they are, mostly, very average. The "better women dancers" tend to be very encouraging and supportive of their partners, which may indicate something about their characters that has helped them to become good dancers!

I must admit that I shake my head in despair when I hear some of these women complaining that there aren't enough "good leaders" only to watch them demolish some poor guy's confidence the very next time they are on the dance floor or at a class. I guess you see that in all dance forms but it seems very prevalent in AT.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

But then, we did "reverse-roles" versions of the move {ocho cortado} (from either side)

Oooh, oooh - that sounds interesting! (You swine; that's hours of my time spoken for as I struggle to work out how to lead it)!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JonD

I have to say that I agree that many tangueras are positively unpleasant to men who are struggling to learn. However, I would say that the vast majority of them aren't "better women dancers"; they're not beginners but they are, mostly, very average.

Yes, it's just bog-standard hotshot behaviour, you see it in every dance.

Originally Posted by JonD

I must admit that I shake my head in despair when I hear some of these women complaining that there aren't enough "good leaders" only to watch them demolish some poor guy's confidence the very next time they are on the dance floor or at a class. I guess you see that in all dance forms but it seems very prevalent in AT.

I think it's more that AT social dancing is so intimidating for leaders, especially at the start, that even the slightest criticism sends us into a tizz.

Like in every dance, you have to work your way up the food chain, until you can just walk into a venue, grab any woman you want, dance her off her CiFs, then leave in disdain. At least, that's my aim

Originally Posted by JonD

Oooh, oooh - that sounds interesting! (You swine; that's hours of my time spoken for as I struggle to work out how to lead it)!

It's damned difficult - for example, leading a sidestep then weight change when you're just doing a sidestep...

But it's a great technique.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

It's damned difficult - for example, leading a sidestep then weight change when you're just doing a sidestep...

I was practicing the Ocho Cortado last night (at Ceroc) with a top-class MJ follower - and it was damned hard work. Not the "difficult" bit (leading into the cross), but the first bit - male sidestep + weight-change, female sidestep.

The problem was that she was so used to mirrorring the leader's movements, that as soon as she felt me change my weight, she automatically shifted hers also. She knew what she was doing, but it was such an ingrained instinct, she kept on doing it. I wasn't leading a weight-change, but I had to change it so I explicitly anticipated and avoided her changing weight. Weird, that was... It demonstrated to me how MJ following is so largely mirror-based.

Can anyone else think of "MJ -> Tango" technique problems?

[JonD]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

as soon as she felt me change my weight, she automatically shifted hers also

I guess a purist would say that your change of weight should be so smooth and silky that she didn't feel it - but I'm afraid I'm far from being pure enough to achieve that all the time myself. If the follower is getting visual clues as well then I find it impossible to "conceal" my change of weight from them.

It demonstrated to me how MJ following is so largely mirror-based.

That's an interesting observation and it explains a lot. And the more skilled the follower the more likely she is to respond to any movement that she perceives as a lead so I don't think it's something I can overcome with followers who aren't educated, to some degree at least, in AT lead/follow technique. I wonder if a good AT leader would manage?

Can anyone else think of "MJ -> Tango" technique problems?

For my money, the biggest single problem is persuading an MJ follower to stand still (preferably with her weight on one foot, but just standing still would be a start). MJ tends to condition people to expect a step and weight change on each beat and that's a hard habit to break.

I was dancing MJ last night and having a "dance with anyone that will have you" sort of evening so danced with lots of ladies ranging from 3-week beginners to brilliant followers like Gypsy Rose. I tend to use pauses in walks and, thinking back, it was interesting how many followers just can't resist the temptation to move their un-weighted foot on the beat, no matter how strong the lead to "stand still". It's quite funny sometimes - you can see them trying to resist but that damn foot will still take itself toward the next step.

Thinking about it, maybe the issue is not so much "standing still" but "having the confidence to take your own time rather than being a slave to the beat".

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JonD

That's an interesting observation and it explains a lot. And the more skilled the follower the more likely she is to respond to any movement that she perceives as a lead

Yes - this follower is extremely sensitive to any lead. As I said, she's top-class - she got the cross bit instantly. But I don't think I'd have had this problem with a normal MJ follower. Although, obviously, I'd have many more different problems with a normal MJ follower

Originally Posted by JonD

I wonder if a good AT leader would manage?

Ask me again in 7 years and 11 months

[spindr]

Originally Posted by JonD

I guess a purist would say that your change of weight should be so smooth and silky that she didn't feel it...

...or just change your weight while leaving your shoulders / chest in the same place -- if she's following your chest, then she shouldn't move?
SpinDr

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by spindr

...or just change your weight while leaving your shoulders / chest in the same place -- if she's following your chest, then she shouldn't move?
SpinDr

Yes, as JonD said, I imagine a Good Leader would be able to change weight invisibly.

I thought my weight change was pretty quiet - but she picked it up, every time...

[rubyred]

During my MJ night on wednesday I danced with my friend who teaches tango at Revolution Dance about once a month. We danced tango to two tracks and he lead me into the heros, but slowed it down by leading me to pivot on each part of the hero, so pivot then forward, pivot then side step, pivot then back then pivot then side again. Twas nice