Learning Tango

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lynn

After week 1 I might have said move - as she seemed to get us doing quite a lot in week 1 - but after week 2 - she didn't actually teach much more in the way of extra 'moves' but used what she was showing us to teach about technique. Two weeks probably isn't enough to tell though.

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress

Anyway, she demonstrated it to me, and it seemed fairly straightforward to me - a simple sequence: back, side, forward, lead a cross, then other side. I vaguely recall being shown this a few years ago, the last time I did a couple of lessons of AT.

But, I don't see why it's necessary - OK, you do all the basic elements, but isn't such a sequence contrary to the whole interpretation-based lead-and-follow nature of AT? If you know a cross is coming, where's the incentive to lead it?

Confused Of Finchley...

[Yogi_Bear]

It is common practice, certainly at the regular tango classes I have been to, not to teach the basic 8-count or salida or at least to do so reluctantly. The emphasis is normally on the elements you mention - walking, connection, forward and side steps, ochos, giros. The salida may be taught because learners expect it to be a part of their repertoire. At a one off tango class such as at a MJ weekender, you may well experience the sdalida as the first or a major part of a class. This is probably because it is a 'step' and hence in a form familiar to the modern jiver. The reason not to give it any prominence in tango classes is, I believe, that beginners frequently dance it too often and inappropriately...which maybe comes down to musical interpretation. And like much in tango, it can take a lot of effort to perfect.

[spindr]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress

As far as I can tell the salida (basic 8) is just a collection of elements that you need to learn pre-packaged into a convenient "move". Something like a tango "first move" -- I have a feeling one teacher suggested that it might be a relatively recent idea (1970's?) for teaching American tourists to "do AT" quickly??

One of the major problems with the basic 8 is the very first step backwards -- especially as you're not really supposed to "back up" when dancing in a milonga. If you have to dance a basic 8, then keep that first step very small.

The advantage to it is that the lady knows when to dance the cross, and the man doesn't have to lead it terribly well -- much more difficult to lead / follow a cross in freestyle. Oh and pre-packaged moves will interfere with your ability to improvise, musicality, etc.

Cheers,
SpinDr.

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by spindr

As far as I can tell the salida (basic 8) is just a collection of elements that you need to learn pre-packaged into a convenient "move". Something like a tango "first move" -- I have a feeling one teacher suggested that it might be a relatively recent idea (1970's?) for teaching American tourists to "do AT" quickly??

One of the major problems with the basic 8 is the very first step backwards -- especially as you're not really supposed to "back up" when dancing in a milonga. If you have to dance a basic 8, then keep that first step very small.

The advantage to it is that the lady knows when to dance the cross, and the man doesn't have to lead it terribly well -- much more difficult to lead / follow a cross in freestyle. Oh and pre-packaged moves will interfere with your ability to improvise, musicality, etc.

Cheers,
SpinDr.

I agree - the MJ First Move is a good analogy. Yes, the 'problem' with the salida is that it is a 'move' which could be danced inappropriately. But it is a good way to give the MJ dancer an intro to the look and feel of tango. You can always dance it omitting the backward start, of course. The backward step should in any event be short. I have a feeling its origins are way before the 70s. It does enable the couple to enter the dance floor appropriately and progress anticlockwise...but here we are getting in too deep...

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress

Anyway, she demonstrated it to me, and it seemed fairly straightforward to me - a simple sequence: back, side, forward, lead a cross, then other side. I vaguely recall being shown this a few years ago, the last time I did a couple of lessons of AT.

But, I don't see why it's necessary - OK, you do all the basic elements, but isn't such a sequence contrary to the whole interpretation-based lead-and-follow nature of AT? If you know a cross is coming, where's the incentive to lead it?

Confused Of Finchley...

We were taught the basic 8 on Friday but the teacher preceded the teaching of it by telling us it is rarely actually danced - she was using it as a tool to teach those basic elements you mentioned. She also spent time showing us how a cross is led and encouraged the leads to swap between the basic 8 and eg the basic 6 which started the same but doesn't have the cross so that the followers would have to follow what was being led.

I also recognised it from a class a couple of years ago.

Re the salida - which bit is the salida - I thought it was just the bit at the end of the basic 8? Isn't it Spanish for 'exit'?

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Lynn

We were taught the basic 8 on Friday but the teacher preceded the teaching of it by telling us it is rarely actually danced - she was using it as a tool to teach those basic elements you mentioned. She also spent time showing us how a cross is led and encouraged the leads to swap between the basic 8 and eg the basic 6 which started the same but doesn't have the cross so that the followers would have to follow what was being led.

I also recognised it from a class a couple of years ago.

Re the salida - which bit is the salida - I thought it was just the bit at the end of the basic 8? Isn't it Spanish for 'exit'?

There are three parts in all
- the reverse start (retroceso)
- the salida (leader steps fwds, follower back)
- the closing finish (la resolucion)

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

There are three parts in all
- the reverse start (retroceso)
- the salida (leader steps fwds, follower back)
- the closing finish (la resolucion)

Thanks. Does the salida include the cross then?

[timbp]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does".

Well, I've only had one casual AT class, so I have no idea what I'm talking about. The first class of my beginner course is tomorrow night.

But I have been reading various things on the Internet. My understanding is the basic 8 step is commonly taught because it uses the main things you need to know. However, because it is so commonly taught, people just learn to do it without extracting the individual parts it was intended to teach.

There are many posts on the internet from women complaining about men leading nothing but the basic 8. It appears you found the female equivalent of the men these women complain about.

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Thanks. Does the salida include the cross then?

Yes, that would be the last step of the salida. The leader would then normally lead a closing finish, but not necessarily, as other steps such as ochos could be led from the cross.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Yes, that would be the last step of the salida. The leader would then normally lead a closing finish, but not necessarily, as other steps such as ochos could be led from the cross.

Thank you, that helps me figure out which bit is which.

At the end of the class when we had the '2 dances into practica' I was dancing with a woman lead who mostly did the basic 8 over and over again. I did offer to stop as she had said she wanted to dance follow as well and the teacher was available for her to dance with, but she perservered through both tracks. I tried to follow but then she didn't lead the cross and then would stop and look down accusingly at my uncrossed feet, waiting for me to cross them before she moved on! I must ask the teacher to lead me into that next time so that I can recognise the lead into the cross.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Yes, that would be the last step of the salida. The leader would then normally lead a closing finish, but not necessarily, as other steps such as ochos could be led from the cross.

Thanks for all the information, everyone, I'm feeling slightly more cheerful now.

Originally Posted by Timbp

There are many posts on the internet from women complaining about men leading nothing but the basic 8. It appears you found the female equivalent of the men these women complain about.

Something like that, yes

It's amazing how I always fall for this when I start to learn a new dance - the "they've been dancing for ages, they must know what they're talking about, and therefore I must be an idiot for assuming something different." syndrome.

Does anyone else get this, or is it just me?

I should have realised, when she took me through the 8 step - I was trying to lead the cross - which, BTW, is pretty darned tricky - and she was just doing it whether I led it or not...

[frodo]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I was told off last night by a (relatively) experienced Tango lady for not knowing the "Basic 8" step. Which, apparently, is "what everyone does". All I've learnt so far is walking, giros, ochos and crosses - should I know this 8 thingy? I was quite happy up until that point with my progress :sad. ...

Pretty much everywhere I've been has taught this initially (except sometimes they miss out the first step), so can understand her point.

[LMC]

Second lesson tonight. Unfortunately, because it's basics, not beginners, there's no progression from week to week - so I shall definitely sign up for the arts depot beginners course as a "top up", even if I have progressed to intermediates by the time the arts depot next course starts in April/May.

Kicca is apparently in Buenos Aires and will be back next week. I'm sure Clive and DJ will want to burn the heretic, but a "regular" that I got chatting to tonight reckons that although K is the better dancer, Hamza is the better teacher.

First up: walking. This week concentrating on holding the frame whilst turning our chests from side to side - opposing the foot we were stepping onto. After about half the classes' shoulders rebelled - including mine - we partnered up and practised (or in my case learned then practised) box steps (from follower's POV, sideR, back, back, sideL) and cross steps (sideR, back, back-cross, back, sideL). I was quite proud of myself for being slightly ahead of the game by consciously making an effort to bring my feet together - Hamza made a big thing of heels together tonight, which I found quite easy on the box steps - but not so much on the next bits, for which I'm not even going to attempt to describe the footwork - a turn with a sandwiche (Hamza said something like mohita? -g'wan, laugh at the beginner) and 6-point turns.

I got told off for crossing my feet when I wasn't supposed to - MJ training creeping in! - so need to focus on pivoting and stepping separately (if that makes sense). I felt that the guys were frequently rushing the lead, which results in me losing connection. That could well be me being too slow - I'm not yet able to pick up the beat and dance at the same time! - need to listen to more tango tracks, suggestions gratefully received.

Hamza quote for this week: "(leaders) even if you have both eyes closed, keep one eye on your partner". Love it.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by LMC

and cross steps (sideR, back, back-cross, back, sideL).

OK - that sounds to me like the salida with the closing finish - the 8 basic without the reverse step for the leader?

Haven't got my Scarborough details yet (due to a postal strike in Belfast ) but I've heard that there will be 4 AT workshops, so hopefully will learn something there and get a few tango dances.

[Lory]

Originally Posted by LMC

Hamza quote for this week: "(leaders) even if you have both eyes closed, keep one eye on your partner". Love it.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Lynn

OK - that sounds to me like the salida with the closing finish - the 8 basic without the reverse step for the leader?

I think it might be, but would need a more expert opinion to check

Hamza has a fantastic sense of humour but hasn't given us many technical names of steps!

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by LMC

Hamza has a fantastic sense of humour but hasn't given us many technical names of steps!

Well, our teacher did tell us the move was called salida but I misunderstood which part she was talking about. (Though knowing salida means 'exit' is partly what caused me to misunderstand I think - I was paying attention!)

Originally Posted by LMC

I think it might be, but would need a more expert opinion to check

To expand for the follower what I'm referring to is side R, back L, back R, cross L, back R, side L. Only we started it with a forward L - that makes it the 8 count basic.

*Sits down again.* I need a bigger office.

As Lory said in the other thread - it is a bit 'blind leading the blind' on here!

We need that Tango Problem Page thread...

[LMC]

That'ud be the one, except we didn't do the forward bit, as you pointed out. I wasn't sure if it was still called a salida without that forward step...

See, we can work it out together