Learning Tango

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by jivecat

But there's a lot of difference between subtle and just plain unclear.

To me, using the conversational analogy, "subtle" is another way of saying "quiet" - your partner can't hear you, because you're mumbling. So you need to speak more clearly / louder.

I know, whenever I fluff a lead, I pretend it was because my lead was too subtle, rather than being, you know, rubbish.

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by rubyred

My difficulty was in following a really subtle lead. I danced with a man whose lead was so subtle that I hardly recognised it as a lead, and was left flumoxed as to what to do next. He invited me to move forward into an ocho and then a hero, without hardly a touch.

Ok, it's hard to tell from this whether he is leading well and you are just not used to it, or whether DavidBailey has the right idea. But the chances are, you probably know. What do you mean by "hardly a touch"? Were you in close or open embrace? If in open, then hardly a touch sounds good because you are getting the lead from your connection with your hands, not by any force from his. If in close then you are definitely touching, so I'd ask, did you personally feel that it was subtle and your lead-detector was just at too low a resolution, or did you feel it was ambiguous? There is a big difference between clear and loud, and you will know after very little experience of dancing AT with people who can really dance it. But you do need that little bit to know what's possible, and I don't know how much you have.

You can definitely improve the resolution of your 'detector', but the only way I know of doing it is by dancing with dancers who can deliver that kind of lead. What you do, though, is essentially relax your embrace. For me it feels like the signal is being detected deeper inside my torso, and with much more precision. My left arm and shoulder relax and my right arm is basically ornamental. When you get it, it feels amazing, and the scope for musical expression really expands. I'd suggest keeping the thought at the back of your mind and just working on it whenever the opportunity comes up.

It is a really interesting exercise to lead with just the chest and follow with just the eyes, not touching at all. Watch Gustavo and Giselle do it.

[rubyred]

Originally Posted by mshedgehog

Were you in close or open embrace? If in open, then hardly a touch sounds good because you are getting the lead from your connection with your hands, not by any force from his. If in close then you are definitely touching, so I'd ask, did you personally feel that it was subtle and your lead-detector was just at too low a resolution, or did you feel it was ambiguous? There is a big difference between clear and loud, and you will know after very little experience of dancing AT with people who can really dance it.

You can definitely improve the resolution of your 'detector', but the only way I know of doing it is by dancing with dancers who can deliver that kind of lead. What you do, though, is essentially relax your embrace. For me it feels like the signal is being detected deeper inside my torso, and with much more precision. My left arm and shoulder relax and my right arm is basically ornamental. When you get it, it feels amazing, and the scope for musical expression really expands. I'd suggest keeping the thought at the back of your mind and just working on it whenever the opportunity comes up.

It is a really interesting exercise to lead with just the chest and follow with just the eyes, not touching at all. Watch Gustavo and Giselle do it.

During the dance I was in open embrace and probably the ambiguity was through my lack of experience in particular of this type of lead. Yes my lead detector was at a low ebb and again this was due to my inexperience of dancing in this way. Funnily enough he has invited me to dance more with him at his venue, and luckily for me he recognised my thurst for learning and experiencing more tango. I was nervous and not relaxed dancing in this way because it was unfamiliar, when I find myself in this situation I hold on for grim death, I need to relax my right arm, move the positioning of the arm more towards the leaders and have it in front of me and open up with my right should... I think!!

Practise, practise, practise, which is what I have done tonight, gaining as much dance time as was possible until my feet throbed, my legs ached, my arm became tired and my brain hurt with concentrating on all the things I was pulled up on. But what heaven and so worth the effort when it finally all comes together. Will be dancing again on Thursday night, but this time with the 'subtle leader' and can't wait.

Thank you for the link, it has raised my aspirations, I will keep going.

[JonD]

I think "subtle" can be applied to leading AT but not in the sense of "quiet" or "light". I'd apply it to the difference in lead for different movements which can be very, very similar - that difference could be described as subtle. For example, the last gancho taught by Ian & Mandy at Sp, the follower hooking the leader's right leg with her right from an "Americano" position, was led through a rotational movement of the leader's body. A smaller but very similar rotational movement can be used to ask the follower to simply cross her right foot in front of her left. To recognise the difference between the movements the follower must be attuned to the subtle differences in the lead.

I'm a firm believer in leading as "quietly" or "lightly" as possible in any situation simply because it gives me a much greater range of options should the music or mood prompt me to "up the volume". But I still rely on the follower recognising the subtle differences in lead which differentiate invitations for different types of movement no matter how powerful my intention. I don't believe that there's a need for a "strong" lead even when you're leading big, strong movements: Vincent Morrell, who teaches in Brussels, generates a huge amount of power in the dance - so much so that it looks almost violent at times. Julie was terrified when he asked her to dance, thinking that she would be shoved and muscled all over the place; she returned to me after a dramatic, explosive dance with a look of wonder on her face and the words "His lead is as light as a feather". (I wish I knew how the hell he does it!)

I'd say that the most important connection in open embrace is through the eyes rather than the hands, but I don't dance in open embrace much. However, when I've been lucky enough to dance with really skilled followers in open embrace it seems as if my body movement alone is enough to invite complex and powerful movements or small and delicate ones. I know the hands do convey information because I probably use them too much but at least I don't "row" with my arms!

Originally Posted by rubyred

Funnily enough he has invited me to dance more with him

No surprise there! We've only danced MJ but you're a deliciously subtle, light, musical, playful dancer. Your lack of experience of AT won't disguise that. Of course, when you're concentrating so much on how to make the movement it's bound to cloud your ability to feel the lead and the music. I'd recommend having at least one tanda a night, preferably toward the end of the evening, when you switch off your analytical brain and just dance. It'll keep you sane and, if you are anything like me, you'll be surprised to discover how much better your technique is when you aren't fretting about it!

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by rubyred

Will be dancing again on Thursday night, but this time with the 'subtle leader' and can't wait.

Thank you for the link, it has raised my aspirations, I will keep going.

Hooray! I saw G&G live at Christmas and they were magic. There's lots more of them on YouTube. I really love the little moments where they're not touching at all but have this really powerful connection - it's electric.

In my experience, if it feels good to dance with him then it's pretty safe to assume he's dancing well. If he feels good take every chance you get. If you are a light, subtle, musical follower like JonD says then you will find you can quite easily follow with just your eyes, and good leaders love this, but you may encounter some problems at first with people who can't dissociate, rarely dance with good followers, and consequently lead with their arms instead.

Incidentally, if someone is trying to steer you like a lawnmower, my tip is to hammer the power down. Make him think that his lawnmower has turned into a Ferrari and he will immediately stop wrestling the steering wheel so much. The day I worked that out was the day I stopped being tortured by arm-steerers. They still do it, but it's much less painful.

JonD is totally right of course, it is mostly with the eyes in open embrace, what I was trying to say was that in as far as you are also using touch, it's you using your own hands to detect his body lead - he is indeed hardly touching you, although of course the frame of his arms follows you about.

I am also with JonD about ganchos, boleos etc. A boleo is a consequence of the timing and momentum of a pivot which is otherwise led in the normal way. The movement of the leader's hands is a consequence of the movements that matter, not the cause. You could achieve the same motion with a hand lead, probably, but it feels totally different to the woman, and takes a lot more effort, and more time.

And yes, it's a bit zen, all about concentrating without thinking. Conscious thought just gets in the way. But for me that happened quite naturally over a period of time without any particular effort, so I wouldn't stress about it.

[tanjive]

I have just been on Tango festival weekend and wanted to share something I picked up.

One comment from one of the main teachers was about how do you know you really understand a tango principal.

The answer when you can not only do the sequence that exercises the principal in one direction but also in reverse. I.E giro with barrida to leads left then giro with barrida to the leaders right. Then to do the same not only with parallel feet (normal system) but also in the cross system. Since there is cross system to the outside of the followers left and also right that makes 6 combinations to exercise the same principal. If comfortable with all 6 then you really understand how the bodies work as one and move together without bringing either partner out of balance.

This takes the well known approach of not thinking in terms of memorising sequences or bits of moves further.

For myself I think that even when you can understand a principal in all directions does not mean you actually exercise all of them in social dancing equally. After all how many follower crosses of their right foot in front of right do you do, or milonga traspie (cut step) on the leaders left side.

Has anyone heard anything similar?

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Raul

It is run by Octavian Janner who was at one time the dancing partner of Bianca of Royo y Negro. Good dancer and his teaching is a little military style but very good for beginners. He has a sort of syllabus and you can check your progress across the "levels".

He has just been to Market Harborough to teach us a workshop, and everyone was pleased with him, so I think he will be rebooked. He was keen on technique and body shape, how differences in posture affect the look of the dance, how to move weight from one foot to the other. Unlike some teachers of tango he had the physical look of a professional dancer, which had me convinced. I thought the ratio of talk to practice was a shade too high. The leaders seemed very confused by the end, so either he pushed them too far, or didn't prepare them well enough.

[JonD]

I think most of my teachers have encouraged me to practice a movement until you can do it "either side". Generally, I find doing stuff into the close side of the embrace is much more challenging although there are notable exceptions like "ocho cortado". Trying to do them all on opposite feet and parallel feet is an intriguing idea - I have a horrible feeling I'd fall flat on my arse with some movements; I'll have to give it a go!

I think most people tend to dance rotational movement into the open side of the embrace, anti-clockwise, on the social dance floor simply because the leader can see so much more and thus avoid collisions. My clockwise giros are total pants simply because I don't practice them enough.

I find leading a follower to cross into the closed side of the embrace, right in front of left, is really difficult. Even when the follower is aware of the possibility it's still difficult to get them to do it. It's a lovely variation when you get it though.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by JonD

I think most people tend to dance rotational movement into the open side of the embrace, anti-clockwise, on the social dance floor simply because the leader can see so much more and thus avoid collisions.

Yes, I agree that happens more often - but I assumed that was simply because it's easier to lead a rotation into the open side? It's also the opposite motion to "natural MJ rotation", which is clockwise...

[David Bailey]

Right, I've spent some time wandering down memory lane over the past couple of days, reviewing this thread for, err, reviews of different venues.

I've now put in links to venue reviews on the jivetango site here- I've managed to extract a dozen useful reviews over the past year or so. If you think I've missed any out, please let me know, it's not easy reviewing 50+ pages of topics...!

I've also added links to the (far more comprehensive) reviews done by MsHedgehog on her excellent blog site for specific venues.

The idea is that we can build up a set of actual review comments for different venues, in an easily-accessible manner. For convenience, I'll probably put future reviews in that site directly, rather than linking to sections of this thread.

And yes, I know it's only London venues. Give me time...

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by mshedgehog

The movement of the leader's hands is a consequence of the movements that matter, not the cause.

I have just looked at this thread again and realised I was partially talking balls above. It feels really horrible to be pulled and pushed around in a way that contradicts the lead, but the hands (of both leader and follower) are important for pivots even in close embrace. It's just that they work with the lead - it's all one thing and they're part of the embrace - so when it's all working together I don't, as a follower, notice them much.

[rubyred]

Practica's are so wonderful, a bit like having a private lesson. My teacher took me on the dance floor this evening, danced a little then pointed out 'simple' things like how I should relax and soften the knees. What a difference that made to feeling the lead, but also to the leader being able then to have a follower who wasn't a sherman tank. I haven't got it quite right yet, but still my passion and determination is there. I am trying to dance with lots of leads and am hoping to join the 'subtle leader' for his class this Thursday. Scared...you bet but embrace the challenge

[The Passion Harem]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me the track David & Kim played during the lesson on Sunday morning @Southport in May/ June?

[rubyred]

Originally Posted by rubyred

am hoping to join the 'subtle leader' for his class this Thursday. Scared...you bet but embrace the challenge

Stripped down to the basics, wonderful to revisit the inital things that you have to build on, and unlearn the errors of my ways. Chill lax the arms, the shoulders, soften the knees, keep the free leg free by relaxing from the hip and feel the lead. Delicious

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by rubyred

Stripped down to the basics, wonderful to revisit the inital things that you have to build on, and unlearn the errors of my ways. Chill lax the arms, the shoulders, soften the knees, keep the free leg free by relaxing from the hip and feel the lead. Delicious

I've had a really crap couple of weeks and now you're reminding me how nice it is when it actually works. So here's one for you:

[rubyred]

Originally Posted by mshedgehog

I've had a really crap couple of weeks and now you're reminding me how nice it is when it actually works. So here's one for you:

to you mshedgehog, now I have to add isolating the hips from the top half. There is never a plateu with Tango, always something new to master.

[JonD]

I've just done the "small group intensive weekend" with Fernando & Tara. As you may have noticed, I'm a fan of their teaching and this weekend just confirmed that opinion. They really are good and the small group (8 couples) format really works well. You dance fixed couple for the vast majority of the workshops which makes it easier to cope with a wider range of ability levels but everyone mixes in and practices with each other between the classes. The small group seems to encourage folk to work with each other, offering advice and sharing frustrations in a very friendly and generous way!

Ocho cortado - I thought I knew how to do that. Well, now I know that I need to be able to do them off any step without the "build up" steps we normally do. We did them in both directions, we reversed and repeated them, did them to alternate sides. I need to improve the way I lead a follower to an "open" position if I'm going to be able to do all that in freestyle. Fab stuff and that was just the first workshop.

The second workshop started with leading the follower's foot to contact the leader's foot, which isn't too easy. The followers seemed to have a problem with standing on the leader's foot when we got it wrong; I can't think why! Once we leaders had learnt to accurately lead the followers foot, and the followers had learnt to let us, we used it to create the most delicious sort of "volcada step" which I can't describe but will attempt to demonstrate if anyone asks.

I love the way F & T build up workshops; the third one extended the concept of the follower stepping into the "leader's space" without hesitation by doing sacadas. We did "one for the leader, one for the follower", ending up with recurring sacadas in a clockwise giro. That's something Julie and I discovered some time ago but it was great to revisit it and get a fresh perspective.

The last workshop was a very practical musicality session, alternating between dancing to the rhythm and melody. It was well taught and thought provoking stuff without too much in the way of technicalities.

7 hours of workshops in a weekend is pretty intensive, plus each couple got a 10 minute "doctor's appointment" with F & T to cure any tango ills that were troubling us. With all the practice and the milongas I was absolutely whacked last night but it was great fun and I learnt a hell of a lot. After feedback from the last two small group weekends they've run, F & T got a chef in to do the cooking which was well worth the extra money - excellent food and I was spared the need to peel vegetables! (Now we need to find someone to do the washing up ...)

Rumour control has it that they're going to do an "improver/intermediate" weekend on 30/31 August and an "intermediate/advanced" weekend on 6/7 September but let F & T know if you're interested in doing one of them so they can keep you updated. They're great weekends and you have to book up quickly; not surprising as there are only 8 couples. Stoke Gabriel is on the River Dart and the countryside is quite beautiful - it'd make a lovely weekend away.

Originally Posted by rubyred

now I have to add isolating the hips from the top half

Ah, the joys of disassociation!

[Feelingpink]

Two things have come up in the past two weeks or so. Firstly, in preparation for Monday's Tango Commute, have been practising dancing with a partner, 1 ipod and a splitter, which allows two sets of headphones to go into said ipod. It works brilliantly ... although if there are a group of people using them in a room, it's very spooky to watch the silent dancing. Guess it's what Silent Discos would look like (except far, far more stylish, obviously).

The second thing was that I had a comment that my balance had gone up to the next level (goodness, it can always do with improvement). The only thing I had done during the week differently (assuming this wasn't just an accumulative kind of thing) was a lot of tango walking on train platforms while waiting - wearing a relatively heavy backpack with photographic equipment and carrying a bag as well, which effectively was pulling me off balance. So, today practised walking around the supermarket carrying a basket of groceries - well, until it got too heavy. It was kinda fun and definitely was working the abs.

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

So, today practised walking around the supermarket carrying a basket of groceries - .

just wish I had a camera

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

The second thing was that I had a comment that my balance had gone up to the next level (goodness, it can always do with improvement). The only thing I had done during the week differently (assuming this wasn't just an accumulative kind of thing) was a lot of tango walking on train platforms while waiting - wearing a relatively heavy backpack with photographic equipment and carrying a bag as well, which effectively was pulling me off balance.

Practicing on platforms really works. And the forwards version of the walk is sexy too so there's really no downside.

Originally Posted by Feelingpink;

now I have to add isolating the hips from the top half.

That clicked really suddenly for me. It was pointed out to me that it was possible to do back ochos without travelling backwards at all unless I wanted to. I had to try it several times, sort of lifting the hip out of the way with the muscles under the ribcage, and then I went "oh" and it