Learning Tango

[Feelingpink]

MsH, I think your latter two quotes were more RubyRed than me ... but sure it's easy to get muddled ... red is very close to pink

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

MsH, I think your latter two quotes were more RubyRed than me ... but sure it's easy to get muddled ... red is very close to pink

I knew it was RubyRed - but I messed up the "quote" thingie!

[rubyred]

With regard to plateu, I suppose at the stage and level I am at, it is early days and still learning.

[Feelingpink]

Friday night at Negracha was a bit of a turning point for me. It was the most fabulous night with lots of those who have a MJ background ... but just about the last tango dance was with a rather drunken, heavy-set man who had just returned from the more formal upstairs telling his mates that he'd just 'pi**ed them all off'. Our dance wasn't great. He spent most of two tracks telling me that I was pulling him off axis, that my right hand had weight on it and shouldn't have and that I was off balance. Mentally comparing the dance to one with my teacher, I don't remember putting any weight much on my right hand, so wasn't sure about his comments.

Fast forward to Monday night's tango commute, where we had an hour of dancing and about halfway through the hour, decided to concentrate on making sure that there was no weight on my right hand other than tension necessary to lead and follow. It seems that when I am off balance, I DO lean on my partner in this way, so am concentrating on not doing this as a coping mechanism. And having another dance with my teacher last night confirmed that I don't do that with him, but then I don't feel off balance with him, pretty much ever.

Also taught at last night's lesson was putting more weight on your toes and lifting them up when your partner is changing weight. It helps with your feeling 'up' and balance, although I'm still trying to get the blend right between feeling up and being in touch with the floor. Somehow that feels like being pulled in two directions at once, but certainly is more pleasant than the drunken lunging guy on Friday night.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

He spent most of two tracks telling me that I was pulling him off axis, that my right hand had weight on it and shouldn't have and that I was off balance. Mentally comparing the dance to one with my teacher, I don't remember putting any weight much on my right hand, so wasn't sure about his comments.

I've also had conflicting remarks about the degree of weight to give, in tango and salsa as well. Thinking about it it's come up in WCS too. Some guys say I'm too tense, others that I'm not giving enough resistance. One of my tango teachers seemed to be asking him to almost be dragging on his arm as then he said he could build up speed and power for more dramatic effects. So I tried! Generally I try for the lightest weight possible and still have compression, but he didn't like that.
I was also a bit shocked at a WCS class to be told that the lady is allowed, even encouraged, to pull back on the lead's arm as she settles into the anchor step at the end of the slot - even to the extent of wrenching his arm. Surely this can't be right???

Conversely, a guy at a salsa class last week, who had a lead like a damp tissue, asked me to relax to over-cooked spaghetti levels (Well I was nervous, it was my first class there) "except for those moments where he needed to lead me"! I like a gentle lead, but I hadn't realised I would also need to develop ESP.

It does seem to me that if a guy has very tense arms and shoulders himself he needs the lady to give more resistance as his own tension reduces sensitivity to the connection. I suppose there is a difference between giving weight and having tension in the arm, but I'm still working this out. Generally I try to give them what they seem to require but if I'm not enjoying the dance very much I draw my own conclusions! As I hope you have done with Mr Drunk Lunger!

.......... And having another dance with my teacher last night confirmed that I don't do that with him, but then I don't feel off balance with him, pretty much ever.

Enough said!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

Friday night at Negracha was a bit of a turning point for me. It was the most fabulous night with lots of those who have a MJ background ...

Me too

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

but just about the last tango dance was with a rather drunken, heavy-set man who had just returned from the more formal upstairs telling his mates that he'd just 'pi**ed them all off'. Our dance wasn't great. He spent most of two tracks telling me that I was pulling him off axis, that my right hand had weight on it and shouldn't have and that I was off balance.

Sorry to hear that you got lumbered with him, but FWIW I didn't feel any of those things

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

And having another dance with my teacher last night confirmed that I don't do that with him, but then I don't feel off balance with him, pretty much ever.

How strange

I do tend to pull people off-balance sometimes - it's easy to do, typically if I'm not thinking or trying to "rush" a move. Or both. I suspect coming from an MJ background doesn't help here, we're used to people moving quickly through motions...

[Feelingpink]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

... I do tend to pull people off-balance sometimes - it's easy to do, typically if I'm not thinking or trying to "rush" a move. Or both. I suspect coming from an MJ background doesn't help here, we're used to people moving quickly through motions...

I don't remember feeling off balance at all with you. And the drunken lurcher wasn't fun at the time, but a useful experience. I also think that part of the difference between this guy and my teacher might be that the teacher could be compensating for my balance issues, at least partially, so that I always feel balanced. As an in between, my regular dance partner I do lean on a little when things aren't 100% between us, so it's definitely something to practise.

When Amir was teaching leaders in Jango, he said that if they want the woman to turn 90 degrees and they only turn 70 degrees, then it's up to the guy to turn the extra 20 degrees themselves (Perhaps the alternative is to haul the follower around, while glaring and saying 'hrumph'). So when you dance with Amir, you always feel that you are doing the right things, even when you aren't exactly. Anyway, it was all a good lesson.

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

... trying to "rush" a move. ...... I suspect coming from an MJ background doesn't help here, we're used to people moving quickly through motions...

I don’t think a lessons goes by with out a teacher or my partner telling me to “slow down”

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

And the drunken lurcher wasn't fun at the time, but a useful experience.

I think I recognise this situation.

I have learned a lot from dancing with bad dancers. You are absolutely right to test everything they say. It's nearly always either wrong, or irrelevant to the actual problem. The instructive part is what happens when you try something different.

If the leader is uncoordinated (drunk tango is not on) or leader or follower is anxious or rushing, one thing that can happen is you try to pivot before your center of gravity is over the foot you're trying to pivot on. Sometimes it's because your feet are not together, your other leg has not caught up, and you don't even want it to, because you don't feel safe and you'd rather be standing sturdily on two well-separated feet. Sometimes you have managed to collect your feet, but you are not actually quite vertical and your centre of gravity is still Over There Somewhere, in which case the only way you can pivot is to take extra steps or lean on the leader. Sometimes you find you have misjudged the length of a step and it was too long or too short and you just aren't where you thought you were and your momentum is not under control. All these things get better with practice. (For me, it happened more or less in that order. Not that I don't still make mistakes, but not those ones so much any more.)

Probably, your teacher gives you enough time to get your balance before asking you to pivot, and he can also tell whether you are there or not, and he can respond to that information in real time. Bad dancers won't know, or won't care. As you get more practice, you will be able to look after all this for yourself, but it does take quite a while. When you can dance with drunken idiots (supposing you wanted to) without having to lean on them, you will know you have achieved something.

All this stuff kept happening to me for months and months but it has sort of faded away now. I really noticed when it became possible for me to take longer steps without unbalancing myself. I had to change the skirt I wore to classes!

Originally Posted by jivecat

I've also had conflicting remarks about the degree of weight to give, in tango and salsa as well. Thinking about it it's come up in WCS too. Some guys say I'm too tense, others that I'm not giving enough resistance.

This happened a lot to me as well for a long time. What we are told to do can be really useless and contradictory, but it does get better with practice. I think you are right when you say that if he is tense, it interferes with the signal so he needs more back. I try to respond with a pressure more or less equal to whatever the man is giving me, and just make sure my elbow is pointing straight down, my hand is in front of me, and my neck is not tense.

The problem is that if one of us overestimates it slightly, it can escalate and gets tenser and tenser, so I try to let go for a moment and reset myself at intervals.

In a tango hold, if the man is anxious he cannot help transmitting it to you, and it is very difficult not to reflect it back with interest so that it gets worse and worse. Some people can make themselves relax physically and de-escalate it. I don't know how!

[spindr]

Originally Posted by jivecat

Conversely, a guy at a salsa class last week, who had a lead like a damp tissue, asked me to relax to over-cooked spaghetti levels (Well I was nervous, it was my first class there) "except for those moments where he needed to lead me"! I like a gentle lead, but I hadn't realised I would also need to develop ESP.

Assuming it's cross-body on 1, then:

In general:
Beats 1,2,3 -- is the preparation (by the leader) -- doesn't need t/c
Beats 5,6,7 -- is the resolution (by the follower)

In a cross body move you will step forwards on 5 -- the guy will generally lead this on 4 and note beat 5 with a dip/bounce of the hands slightly below waist level -- it's almost a vertical version of the prance-lead in WCS. For a lot of salsa moves your footwork will implicitly make one rotation direction or another "more natural" -- in that case, there's no need for huge amounts of t/c to lead anything special -- except to raise/lower the hands.

There are cases that you will get a lead before beat 4 -- but that's generally a (multiple) turn -- the earlier the lead the more turns :-) But the leader isn't cranking your around -- so there's no real need for a lot of t/c -- the lead just needs to give you a good indication and a very slight "springboard".

SpinDr

[David Bailey]

MsHedgehog's got an excellent "calendar" thing going for London Tango events:
MsHedgehog: London Tango Calendar (alpha)

Worth having a look at / commenting on, I think.

This'd be an excellent resource if it can be done collaboratively.

[philsmove]

just in case any one had not noticed

http://www.cerocscotland.com/tango.htm

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by philsmove

just in case any one had not noticed

http://www.cerocscotland.com/tango.htm

There's even a thread:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...30-31-aug.html

[Feelingpink]

Have to share ... in all the years of doing MJ, somehow the dates never worked & I didn't have a birthday dance. Tonight, I had a tango birthday waltz (cos birthday was yesterday) and it was just the MOST divine thing EVER. It was followed with dancing with lovely, lovely people all night and lots and lots of white wine and gifts of chocolate slice with smarties and a CD of images from tango commute. Yum, bliss, hic,

[rubyred]

Tried a new venue tonight in Manchester. I had a dreadful night, felt very much like the baby on the tango dance floor. I couldn't follow a lead if it jumped up and hit me in the face. I was pure rubbish, and the leads I danced with were so kind but I know when I am not in synch, not connected and just wrong footed. Weight change, couldn't locate my core, my balance was awful, couldn't dissasociate my hips from the top half of my body, lost my concentration, felt I dragged the poor leaders down because I had too much tension in my arms, and my feet were all 'Betty Boo', i.e toes meeting toes ugh. Not a good night for me and confidence right out the window. But hey ho I suppose you get nights and have experiences like this, really tired tonight, stressed about other stuff so will have to try harder next time, good things don't come easy, they have to be worked for. Oh well chin up, keep going, next tango dancing won't be until Monday now

[JonD]

What contrasts! One delightful birthday night and one horrendous "constipated penguin" kind of night.

I'm pleased to report that I've been far closer to delight than despair. I went down to the Tango Mango on Tuesday evening and had some absolutely delicious dances with Julie, Alison, Ruth and the wonderful Ines Moussavi. Ines is a dream; she's just fabulous to dance with, fab company and a great teacher into the bargain. We have such a laugh together. At one point I screwed up a lead and got a volcada where I'd anticipated an ocho which was a bit embarrassing as Ines was "falling" into the close side of the embrace when I was heavily disassociated to my left and about to take a step to my right on my left foot; it could have been ugly. Fortunately I was able to kind of step round her on my left foot and then pivot, bringing her back onto her axis. Ines and I were both giggling away throughout and I'd have thought no more of it if I hadn't seen some guy looking impressed and gesturing "Did you see that?!" to his partner. It's wonderful when you fudge your way out of some total screw-up and people think it was a brilliant piece of intentional improvisation!

Last night I went to Fernando & Tara's beginner & improver classes in Exeter - they taught ganchos really well in the second class - and I'm going back to the Mango tonight. Tomorrow afternoon I'm going to spend a couple of hours practicing with Julie then go to the Mango for an advanced class with Ines followed by dancing through the evening. I'll probably dance at the Mango on Saturday as well, then go sailing in Lyme Regis on Sunday. Life really isn't too bad!

[rubyred]

Originally Posted by JonD

one horrendous "constipated penguin" kind of night.

Love it, a very accurate description ha ha !! Feeling much less constipated today thank goodness,and training my feet to stay in the first postition when standing still, and point outwards whilst I have been walking around the shops during my lunch break.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

The moves MJ ripped from Tango have a context and detail that makes them easier in the original. Attempts to fuse Tango and Jive are... optimistic. Not going to happen. The ability to move between Tango and Jive seems mostly pointless: there's a much smaller overlap compared to Swing and Jive.

Revisiting this one...

It is extremely difficult to fuse AT and MJ. But it is not impossible, neither is it pointless.

When done well, it looks and feels awesome - better than either dance looks in isolation, in some ways.

And even if it's not done well, it still has benefits. For example, most tango photos look great - that's because good tango dancers are always on balance and connected. Most MJ photos look rubbish - that's because MJ dancers aren't.