Learning Tango

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by jivecat

Having gone from blank incomprehension about "decorations" to compulsive over-use of them like a tango nervous twitch I'd like to know how other people are getting on with them.

Ok this was my approach and so far (fifteen months of regular dancing) it's worked well for me.

I decided right at the start that I would totally ignore the whole question of decorations until the little ones started to happen all by themselves without me even intending to do them. And sure enough after about six months of following nicely I went "oh, what was that?" and found that whenever I was relaxed and dancing naturally, there they were. Just little toe taps and things when enough space in the dance coincided with an accent in the music, but there, just part of me dancing around to the music and not really an intentional thing.

It would probably take you a lot less time that that - I'd never done any kind of dance before and I am a very cautious person.

So when that happened I decided I was ready to watch Jennifer's Ornaments and read her tutorials so I would get some ideas of what to work on.

But my basic rule is still that I never do them unless I feel like it, because if you do they can get totally pointless and clichéd and amusical, which bores me, and I don't do ones that don't feel natural because I think I'm supposed to be having fun and not scaring myself (I'm easily scared).

For example I can't really do the "beat in front" that she demonstrates in the video there, because I'm not fast enough and my free leg technique isn't quite what it needs to be for this to be a natural movement. I'm really really cautious with it and I'd only try it with certain leaders and when I'm feeling really secure. I want to be able to do it, but to get there, I'm working on my free leg technique, not the ornament directly.

But that's just my approach, it could be that it only works for me because of the way I learn.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I'd also like to know more about the protocol of when it' OK to allow your foot to be cocked toe upwards instead of parallel to the other foot,

My take: Do it when you feel inspired, like when the music goes "!"; otherwise don't. There are no rules, it's your personal relationship with the music and that's it. Ears, feet, twiddles. No rules. I think this is a really sweet, sexy little no-effort ornament and I do it a lot.

Originally Posted by jivecat

and ESPECIALLY when to rake your 3.5" stiletto along the floor in a jaunty but tetchy gesture of dance domination!

I've never done that. It looks cool though. Do it if you feel inspired, just don't damage the floor!

What some people say is - "in tango, the man has style, the woman has personality." As a follower you have to be able to cope with any style, as that's imposed by the leader and his ideas or limitations. But the personality is yours.

As for how long you've got to do them, some friends who are much more experienced dancers than me had a discussion about it recently in the comments on my blog, it's a bit confused (I was totally lost) but really interesting. I think it's a bit rude to post my own URLs on somebody else's discussion board but if you want to click through on my profile it's the one in February about "how long should I wait for the lady to finish her ornaments?"

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by mshedgehog

I decided right at the start that I would totally ignore the whole question of decorations until the little ones started to happen all by themselves without me even intending to do them. And sure enough after about six months of following nicely I went "oh, what was that?" and found that whenever I was relaxed and dancing naturally, there they were. Just little toe taps and things when enough space in the dance coincided with an accent in the music, but there, just part of me dancing around to the music and not really an intentional thing.

Good thinking. I didn't feel comfortable with them either and felt that it was damaging to my confidence to be expected to add my own stuff before I was ready, and without ever being taught how to do the decorations. I don't do anything now until I'm good'n'ready. However, my style was described recently as "understated" so I'm thinking I could trowel it on a bit more and still no-one would notice!

It would probably take you a lot less time that that - I'd never done any kind of dance before and I am a very cautious person.

No, it's taken me longer - at least two years! But then it did seem to happen overnight, as you describe. I'm also very cautious, especially where dance is concerned. After the first foggy few months when I had no idea how to follow, I knuckled down to total obedience to the leader, even though this was not my natural character. I'm over all that now.

So when that happened I decided I was ready to watch Jennifer's Ornaments and read her tutorials so I would get some ideas of what to work on.

Ah yes, the bewitching Black Lotus. I've seen the film clips but not read her useful notes before. Although I can hardly drag my eyes away from her fabulous shoe collction and her killer heels scything through the air long enough to take in the actual steps.

I don't do ones that don't feel natural because I think I'm supposed to be having fun and not scaring myself (I'm easily scared).

Surely not! What kind of ones scare you? Do you think that if you make yourself do them they would eventually begin to feel natural?

For example I can't really do the "beat in front" that she demonstrates in the video there, because I'm not fast enough and my free leg technique isn't quite what it needs to be for this to be a natural movement. I'm really really cautious with it and I'd only try it with certain leaders and when I'm feeling really secure. I want to be able to do it, but to get there, I'm working on my free leg technique, not the ornament directly.

The "beat in front" is the one I think I now overuse. I don't know what I look like doing it so I can't check up on my technique. (Don't even mention the word "video".) I don't know how I picked it up, either. Do you think all this stuff can be learnt by osmosis from compulsive viewing of Jennifer Bratt clips? I wish.

The free leg is something I'm just returning to. In my early lessons people seemed to go on about it quite a lot, but I can't recall it being mentioned for some time now. It surfaced as an issue because one of my regular leaders said that it was very difficult to get me to do a boleo (that's where the leg is relaxed and swings freely, yes? I never have go a grip of all the terms.) The classes I attend seem to have moved towards a focus on learning figures and I would rather have some pure technique included every time.

I think this is a really sweet, sexy little no-effort ornament and I do it a lot.

Is there a Jennifer Bratt clip where she demonstrates this?

I've never done that. It looks cool though. Do it if you feel inspired, just don't damage the floor!

I'm more worried about damaging my feet - I often gouge the skin across the front of my foot as I pass the other foot across even in moderate heels.

As for how long you've got to do them, some friends who are much more experienced dancers than me had a discussion about it recently in the comments on my blog, it's a bit confused (I was totally lost) but really interesting. I think it's a bit rude to post my own URLs on somebody else's discussion board but if you want to click through on my profile it's the one in February about "how long should I wait for the lady to finish her ornaments?"

Ta. I shall look at it.

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by jivecat

No, it's taken me longer - at least two years!

I was very well taught at the start though so I learned how to follow straight away, it sounds from your account earlier on this thread as though you had a ton of your time wasted.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I can hardly drag my eyes away from her fabulous shoe collction

Whisper it ... I don't like the way Comme Il Fauts look. They just make me think 'Footballers Wives' - a show of high satiric genius that I could hardly bear to watch, so I just used to read the episode guides.

Originally Posted by jivecat

Surely not! What kind of ones scare you? Do you think that if you make yourself do them they would eventually begin to feel natural?

Anything that requires too much sacrifice of balance or concentration. Depends who I'm dancing with, of course. They do get easier with practice but I don't force anything when I'm meant to be dancing socially. Partly because I hate it so much when leaders force things on me that they haven't mastered, so I feel it's only fair. Sometimes I should be a bit more adventurous though.

Originally Posted by jivecat

Do you think all this stuff can be learnt by osmosis from compulsive viewing of Jennifer Bratt clips? I wish.

I don't think so - I just treat them as suggestions, I think we mostly have to work out for ourselves how they're done.

Originally Posted by jivecat

The free leg is something I'm just returning to. In my early lessons people seemed to go on about it quite a lot, but I can't recall it being mentioned for some time now. It surfaced as an issue because one of my regular leaders said that it was very difficult to get me to do a boleo (that's where the leg is relaxed and swings freely, yes? I never have go a grip of all the terms.) The classes I attend seem to have moved towards a focus on learning figures and I would rather have some pure technique included every time.

Yes! Yes! This is much harder than people think it is and because dance teachers never know any anatomy, when you do get an explanation it usually makes no sense at all except in that teacher's imagination, and nearly always seems to conflicts with the last explanation you got from someoene else.

And once you get in this sort of class, if you're a reasonably good follower, everyone ignores you and you get no teaching at all. Really, we should be more demanding.

I had the same problem with boleos just recently, maybe for the same reason. If I tried to relax that leg, which is what they tell you to do, it just went all over the place or was resting on the ground so it couldn't be moved at all. Luckily I got a tutorial with an experienced teacher who was helping out in the class and although I didn't manage to make it work in that lesson, I did puzzle out why it was that it didn't work.

I was dropping the hip, because that was the only way I could see to 'relax' the leg. Eventually I realised that the hip and the leg are not the same thing - it's possible to lift the free hip - so that your pelvis feels sort of balanced - without holding the thigh joint in a particular position. You only 'lift' the hip in the same way it lifts by itself if you stand with both feet flat on the floor, heels together, then lift one heel off the floor. Just like that. Then you figure out how to do that and relax the thigh joint. It's possible but it's not 'natural' unless you dance all the time, and it has to be habitual before the boleos will actually work.

I have been conscientiously practicing this on trains, and it's getting a bit better, but the chances are about 90% that my explanation will be totally useless to you.

Originally Posted by jivecat

Is there a Jennifer Bratt clip where she demonstrates this?

No, but I think it's because it's practically impossible to see from a picture what it is you are supposed to do with that leg. It has to be explained in words, hence the problem.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I'm more worried about damaging my feet - I often gouge the skin across the front of my foot as I pass the other foot across even in moderate heels.

I do that all the time. I think everybody does. I noticed that in fishnets I can get a proper gouge with skin coming up, without tearing the tights. It's a bugger in one pair of shoes that tie with a ribbon bow on the instep. Tie a double bow - do this and trip yourself up. Tie a single bow - do this and it comes undone. Tie double knot, single bow - it takes forever to get your shoes off.

[jivecat]

Originally Posted by mshedgehog

I was very well taught at the start though so I learned how to follow straight away, it sounds from your account earlier on this thread as though you had a ton of your time wasted.

It was Ceroc time wasted as Ceroc in those days didn't bother to mention the importance of following, or maybe I was just slow on the uptake. Luckily, when I got to tango I'd pretty much grasped how to follow, or I wouldn't have made it past the first lesson, no doubt.

Anything that requires too much sacrifice of balance or concentration. Depends who I'm dancing with, of course. They do get easier with practice but I don't force anything when I'm meant to be dancing socially. Partly because I hate it so much when leaders force things on me that they haven't mastered, so I feel it's only fair. Sometimes I should be a bit more adventurous though.

I hate leaders forcing things on me in MJ, especially when they assume they are leading correctly and aren't (although I'll happily respond if they request to practise on me) but I'm still reasonably tolerant of it in tango - this maybe because there's only a small choice of partners, so it's in my interests to put up with it if I ever want to dance. Also, it is a small group and everyone knows each other's ways quite well.

I am starting to play a rather naughty little game with myself, though. You know when you're being led through something and there's a bit of a wobble, and for a moment it's not apparent whether it's you or him? I like to really ground my balance at that point so I know for sure it's him rather than me - it tends to catch them out as it is not what they are expecting. There is a slight expectation that you will gallantly hold each other up, or at least gloss over each other's balance errors, which I have been omitting to do, just for the sheer fun of it. Trouble is, the more astute of my regular partners are already getting wise to me and are plotting their revenge.

I had the same problem with boleos just recently, maybe for the same reason. If I tried to relax that leg, which is what they tell you to do, it just went all over the place or was resting on the ground so it couldn't be moved at all. Luckily I got a tutorial with an experienced teacher who was helping out in the class and although I didn't manage to make it work in that lesson, I did puzzle out why it was that it didn't work.

I was dropping the hip, because that was the only way I could see to 'relax' the leg. Eventually I realised that the hip and the leg are not the same thing - it's possible to lift the free hip - so that your pelvis feels sort of balanced - without holding the thigh joint in a particular position. You only 'lift' the hip in the same way it lifts by itself if you stand with both feet flat on the floor, heels together, then lift one heel off the floor. Just like that. Then you figure out how to do that and relax the thigh joint. It's possible but it's not 'natural' unless you dance all the time, and it has to be habitual before the boleos will actually work.

I have been conscientiously practicing this on trains, and it's getting a bit better, but the chances are about 90% that my explanation will be totally useless to you.

What about buses, lifts and time/dimension teleportation pods? Perhaps you practise your pivots and walking on these?

I have been confused about the relaxed free leg as I can't figure out how it can be done, unless it is an inch or so shorter than the other leg. Which it isn't. Your comments are a good pointer, however. Also, I have to reconcile the relaxation of the free leg with the discipline of good balance and conscious placement of the foot and toes as they move through each step, which generally requires that the rest of me be not relaxed.

I noticed that in fishnets I can get a proper gouge with skin coming up, without tearing the tights. It's a bugger in one pair of shoes that tie with a ribbon bow on the instep. Tie a double bow - do this and trip yourself up. Tie a single bow - do this and it comes undone. Tie double knot, single bow - it takes forever to get your shoes off.

I haven't graduated onto fishnets yet, though I am toying with the idea. I may ease myself into them by trying natural coloured ones first, so I can pretend I'm not wearing them.

[mshedgehog]

Originally Posted by jivecat

It was Ceroc time wasted

Actually I think I was confused, and thinking of Liz's description of being presented with some really bizarre stuff about crossing 'to show you know you're supposed to' (?!?!?!?!????!). I tell you what, though, in tango you really learn to follow. Someone I dance with regularly decided to lead me in some jive and a rumba, which he leads well - I was vaguely plausible in both, and I've never been taught those at all.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I am starting to play a rather naughty little game with myself, though. You know when you're being led through something and there's a bit of a wobble, ... I like to really ground my balance at that point so I know for sure it's him rather than me ... a slight expectation that you will gallantly hold each other up, or at least gloss over each other's balance errors, which I have been omitting to do, just for the sheer fun of it.

I like that. It'd be interesting. The grounding thing is probably the right thing to do. I remember someone saying this also communicates to him that he has taken you off-axis - how do you do it, I mean what do you actually do to accomplish that?

Once, last summer, I was dancing with guy who had found out that he could do ornaments too, and it was like he was playing, with his feet, those little drums they play in Indian classical music. (Tabla?) He could actually lead quite well at the same time. So I was just following as an interested spectator making sure I didn't laugh. Then he nearly hurled himself right into the DJ and the sound system. I was SO pleased with myself for holding him up. I thought "ooh, I've got my balance! I'm totally responsible for my own axis, with a bit to spare! Result!" What I actually said was "Watch yourself!"

I've never seen him since, though.

Originally Posted by jivecat

What about buses, lifts and time/dimension teleportation pods? Perhaps you practise your pivots and walking on these?

Would a teleportation pod work? There wouldn't be enough time, would there? But I live in London and commute to work, so I just do the standing-on-one-leg thing on the Tube. And on the platforms. And while I'm queueing up at checkouts. Honestly, no-one's ever taken a blind bit of notice. And anyway, the walk with your feet brushing past each other and your hips just gently swinging out of each other's way looks fabulous, backwards or forwards. Maybe not the boleos though, could be a bit dodgy in Topshop. I do kind of do little three-point-turns with a backward step, away from the coffee counter, where before I would have just plodded around and stumped off with my feet hip-width apart.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I have been confused about the relaxed free leg as I can't figure out how it can be done, unless it is an inch or so shorter than the other leg. Which it isn't.

I said that exact same thing. It just doesn't seem like it adds up. At the moment it works for me if I lift the free heel, 'lift' the hip, and allow the knee to bend a little bit more than I used to. And the standing knee has to be soft and not-locked. I noticed recently that if I do allow the free hip to 'lift' slightly, that knee hangs naturally towards the centre, and that 'beat in front' thing feels a bit more plausible to me.

Originally Posted by jivecat

Also, I have to reconcile the relaxation of the free leg with the discipline of good balance and conscious placement of the foot and toes as they move through each step, which generally requires that the rest of me be not relaxed.

Even once I understand where I'm trying to go, delivering it physically is a totally different matter. I think the way it works for balance is that all the mass is as close as possible to the line from head to standing foot. At the moment I'm ending up with my 'free' knee hanging sort of half in front of the 'standing' knee. I'm not sure if this is going to work out or not though. It might yet turn out to be a bad idea.

The main problem I have with posture is accidentally sticking my bottom out. It makes my lower back ache and I know it's bad, but it happens anyway when I'm tired.

Originally Posted by jivecat

I haven't graduated onto fishnets yet, though I am toying with the idea. I may ease myself into them by trying natural coloured ones first, so I can pretend I'm not wearing them.

Flesh-coloured fishnets are GREAT. They are as tough as opaques, they cover as much as opaques, and you can even wear them with open-toed shoes. Get some!

[Brighton Belle]

Originally Posted by mshedgehog

I'd like to read that, I've never taken one of their classes, but everyone who's taken a class of theirs says they teach well. I went to one of the workshops they organised with Miguel Angel Zotto, and the organisation was good. I get the impression that they'd be good for someone transferring from jive or swing. I think Alexandra is a ballet dancer.

I like their spoofy little ad on YouTube.

Re: Beginners Tango Boot Camp, 26/27 Apr, Brighton. Stefano Fava and Alexandra Wood.

It was fantastic! Stefano and Alexandra are excellent dancers and very good teachers. They both have very strong firey temperaments (well with an Italian and a red head you couldn't expect much else!) and they both spark off each other to great effect. Very entertaining at times.

They usually charge £30 for a 2 hr workshop so if you consider that for £119 we got 14 hrs of tuition over 2 days, 2 evening dances, lunches, dinner with wine, tea/coffee/snacks/drinks all day, a t-shirt and a DVD it was fantastic value. Warren had everything very well organised - it all ran very smoothly with no hiccups at all and no waiting around for anything. There were only 40 people in total and it was well gender balanced so everyone was dancing almost all the time. Everyone was very friendly and we all got on really well.

Really the only slight fly in the ointment (and I don't really know what you'd do about this) was that there were several people who had no dance experience at all in any dance form and they were really struggling. By the end of the first day, they'd reached saturation point which wasn't so bad for the followers but for the leaders, the 2nd day was really too much. This meant that half of the Sunday, everytime I got to dance with one of them, I couldn't practice any of the steps we'd just been shown because they couldn't remember them in order to lead them! So we'd end doing a sort of shuffle round in more or less the right direction like the slow dance you do at the end of a disco!

That aside though, (a minor point) it was a very enjoyable weekend and we all really felt like we'd learnt something worthwhile. I think I could probably follow most basic moves now - not with much finesse I grant you but at least I can get round the floor without making a complete idiot of myself which is really what I was aiming for. I'll try and put some of the advice above in this thread into practice now (now I know what you're all talking about!)

Thanks very much to Warren and Ruth for all their hard work putting it all together - looking forward to the follow up one in a few weeks. See you all in Buenos Aires!

[Alice]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know anything about OKTango? They have a venue near Kings X and one near Tottenham Court Rd. Any good?

[Raul]

Some more inspiration for everybody out there.

YouTube - Julianne and Damian

[JonD]

And a little more. YouTube - Esteban Moreno y Claudia Codega - Piazzolla

It's a lousy quality clip but the dancing is something else - particularly as it's freestyle rather than choreographed. Claudia and Esteban are based in Lyon when they are in Europe and there's a festival there at the end of May. I'd have gone if I'd found out about it earlier. They are fab teachers as well as dancers; I was lucky enough to do 3 workshops with them in Brussels last year, two on musicality and the third on "unusual movements" that was completely crazy and absolutely brilliant!

[Raul]

Originally Posted by Alice

Hi guys,

Does anyone know anything about OKTango? They have a venue near Kings X and one near Tottenham Court Rd. Any good?

It is run by Octavian Janner who was at one time the dancing partner of Bianca of Royo y Negro. Good dancer and his teaching is a little military style but very good for beginners. He has a sort of syllabus and you can check your progress across the "levels".
He runs his classes in bars and there is not much space and the atmosphere is sometimes not very conducive to tango.
There were lots of good teachers taking his advanced classes at one time including Cesar Velasquez and Jenny Sayer/Amir Giles but most of these have moved on.
There is a practica but he does not run a proper milonga.

It is worth a try. His warmups including proper weight changes are great for technique.

But IMO there are better and more inspiring teachers running regular classes in London including
David Benitez and Kim Schwartz - Tango Movement ~ The Essence of Argentine Tango in London
Stefano Fava and Alexandra Wood - Tango in Action
Julio Mendez and Kika Tomassi - Zero Hour Tango

[David Bailey]

A group of us are going to Negracha's in Central London, and hoping to make this a regular night.

Inevitably ( ), we have a Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19853725859

- PM me if you'd like to join it.

[Feelingpink]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

A group of us are going to Negracha's in Central London, and hoping to make this a regular night.

Inevitably ( ), we have a Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19853725859

- PM me if you'd like to join it.

Looking forward to it. Also heard tonight about TangoCommute dancing on seven London bridges and seven London stations to celebrate compassion and connection on July 7 between 6pm and 7pm. Quite a few of us from South London Tango have signed up for London Bridge ... and I've bought an ipod splitter, to allow the ipod to take two sets of headphones. Seemed like a fun idea to be able to share ipods anyway Would be lovely to see others there too.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

Looking forward to it. Also heard tonight about TangoCommute dancing on seven London bridges and seven London stations to celebrate compassion and connection on July 7 between 6pm and 7pm.

There's some cunning subtle theme there, yes? If only I could see it...

Seriously, it sounds great.

[David Bailey]

And whilst I'm here, I may as well promote my new site:
From Modern Jive to Tango - Home

It's meant to be a (non-commercial) information resource for those of us learning AT from MJ. As it says on the tin.

I'd very much welcome any ideas or contibutions (content, not money*), or suggestions for additions / changes. PM me, or mail me.

I think I may do an "Events" section, seeing as how there's all these open-air Summer Of Tango events going on

* Although, if you really do want to give me money, who am I to refuse.