Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass

**Feelingpink** · 10th-April-2006, 06:21 PM

I was talking to another MJer today ... we've both done a few WCS classes and would like to do it more but haven't been able to nail the basics. The Dartford six-week "from scratch" course would have been great but the commute wouldn't have worked. RK has loaned me a Jordan & Tatiana DVD for Easter ... but I'm wondering if other forumites are in the same boat ... and how they're tackling this or have they just given up? Perhaps if there were enough of us, we could go to Cat or one of the other teachers for an afternoon or couple of afternoons.

**Msfab** · 10th-April-2006, 06:44 PM

Cat and Lee have regular WCS workshops, check out http://www.fusiondance.freeservers.com/custom.html. Paul warden and Cat have a monthy workshop in Bisley (http://www.jivebug.co.uk/)
I havent yet done a workshop, but ive heard they are all very good for the WCS begginer. There are also a few I know that have had private lessons which are very useful. I find having a weekly lesson more useful to me - I can pick things up and keep them (info overload).
Keep going the rewards of WCS are amazing

spikey blond · 10th-April-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

I was talking to another MJer today ... we've both done a few WCS classes and would like to do it more but haven't been able to nail the basics. The Dartford six-week "from scratch" course would have been great but the commute wouldn't have worked. RK has loaned me a Jordan & Tatiana DVD for Easter ... but I'm wondering if other forumites are in the same boat ... and how they're tackling this or have they just given up? Perhaps if there were enough of us, we could go to Cat or one of the other teachers for an afternoon or couple of afternoons.

Hiya Feeling Pink

I've been doing WCS off and on for about 18 months now and it is not one of those dance styles that you master the basics in a couple of afternoons - it takes a lot of tenacity. It took me about a year before I felt that the penny actually droppped with the technique and it is a very steep learning curve from MJ and I have still got a very long way to go! BUt it is sooooo worth the patience and commitment - the rewards are enormous. Helps with musicality in MJ too and my jive technique and style have changed enormously since I started WCS lessons.

Recommend that you try to get to as many beginner and improver classes as you can (Twickenham Wednesdays

) on a regular basis and try to get to the monthly WCS workshops run by Paul and Cat at Bisley

- they fry the brain, knacker the legs but you really do learn an incredible amount. Also try to get to any workshops with the US WCS dancers when they hit our shores - makes you aware of the diverse styles that are out there - they are awesome

**Feelingpink** · 10th-April-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spikey blond

Hiya Feeling Pink

I've been doing WCS off and on for about 18 months now and it is not one of those dance styles that you master the basics in a couple of afternoons - it takes a lot of tenacity. It took me about a year before I felt that the penny actually droppped with the technique and it is a very steep learning curve from MJ and I have still got a very long way to go! BUt it is sooooo worth the patience and commitment - the rewards are enormous. Helps with musicality in MJ too and my jive technique and style have changed enormously since I started WCS lessons.

Recommend that you try to get to as many beginner and improver classes as you can (Twickenham Wednesdays

) on a regular basis and try to get to the monthly WCS workshops run by Paul and Cat at Bisley

- they fry the brain, knacker the legs but you really do learn an incredible amount. Also try to get to any workshops with the US WCS dancers when they hit our shores - makes you aware of the diverse styles that are out there - they are awesome

I want to keep going with WCS for many of the reasons you've mentioned, but I've tried the Wednesday nights at Twickenham and I just seem to leave those more confused than when I arrived and Bisley, realistically, isn't that public transport friendly. Guess I'm just stuck.

spikey blond · 10th-April-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

I want to keep going with WCS for many of the reasons you've mentioned, but I've tried the Wednesday nights at Twickenham and I just seem to leave those more confused than when I arrived and Bisley, realistically, isn't that public transport friendly. Guess I'm just stuck.

Feel sure if you persevered at Twickenham it would gradually fall into place - everyone feels confused at first as there is so much to think about but don't be down-hearted

. YOu may find it useful to have a few private lessons with one of the teachers, think quite a few of the recent beginners have gone down that route (Kev and Lory, Silver Fox) and really seem to have benefitted from the 1-2-1 tuition. Maybe get a couple of others to join you to spread the cost if that is an issue. YOu are right about Bisley not being public transport friendly but there are always folk to help with runs to and from Brookwood station if you let them know (via Forum) that you need a lift.

DON'T GIVE UP!!!!

**Minnie M** · 10th-April-2006, 09:10 PM

You need a good lead to help you master the basics and give you confidence - if you can get to Southport, Robert Cordoba is happy to dance with all us ladies (and Deborah leads really well too) - you will be amazed how easy it is to follow him

**Feelingpink** · 10th-April-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnie M

You need a good lead to help you master the basics and give you confidence - if you can get to Southport, Robert Cordoba is happy to dance with all us ladies (and Deborah leads really well too) - you will be amazed how easy it is to follow him

I'd love a regular dance partner to have lessons with ... but have given up trying to find one. Thanks Minnie - I'll think of you at Southport

**Minnie M** · 10th-April-2006, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

I'd love a regular dance partner to have lessons with ... but have given up trying to find one. Thanks Minnie - I'll think of you at Southport

R-K has a spare place

please please come

(I can lead the basic steps)

Chef · 11th-April-2006, 10:36 AM

I had the same problem for ages. I would get a couple of WCS lessons at weekenders and go to the monthly workshops at Bisley. The only trouble was that there was too much time between the lessons and although I remembered most of the footwork patterns WCS is less forgiving of mistakes than MJ. I only needed to fluff or hesitate at little bit and I would lose the whole thing.

The major breakthrough came when Cat did a six lesson beginner course at Beach Boogie. There was time and suitable music to practices between each lesson and not enough time between the lessons to forget the basic footwork patterns. It gave me the feeling that I really could get a grip on this dance style as well as the certain knowledge that this was a dance I really really wanted to do.

After the Beach Boogie course it was back to the Bisley workshops and they were just not regular enough to keep my skills up to par. To cut a long story short I sort of badgered some local organisers (either you set up a class or I will) into running a WCS class, as they had been planning to do for a long time.

This time I went on the beginners’ course and each week I made a video of the basic footwork patterns with as many notes on technique as I could remember from the class and then I used then to practice between the lessons. I also made a point of learning the womans footwork because for some reason the ladies would also come over to me to ask for a reminder of their footwork patterns. I still get funny looks when I am found in quiet corridors at work with my Ipod on, practising my footwork during lunch breaks. After all these years you would have thought that they would be used to me.

For me, I found the beginners’ course to be absolutely vital. I also found that videoing and practicing the basic footwork patterns also to be vital. I also found that trying to switch between WCS and MJ within the same song was not possible for me. I found that I had to ditch MJ for about 4 weeks and only do WCS or my brain became hopelessly confused.

Unfortunately the numbers of dancers at my weekly class have dropped and it doesn’t look like it will be commercially viable in the long term unless something can be done to attract more dancers (see the WCS in Dartford thread).

If you can get Cat to do a beginners course then pay up front, bend heaven and earth to get to every class, practice the basic footwork patterns between classes, and immerse yourself only in WCS for a few weeks to avoid confusion.

If any beginner finds themself at Dartford then I will do my best to help them, as other dancers have helped me. I really want to see the class that I go to each week survive and would be most fed up if the organisers feel they have to shut the classes down.

*Lindsay* · 11th-April-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnie M

if you can get to Southport, Robert Cordoba is happy to dance with all us ladies (and Deborah leads really well too) - you will be amazed how easy it is to follow him

He's one of the best leads I've had (not 'had' btw...)

spindr · 12th-April-2006, 12:40 AM

Can you cross-train for WCS?

Could you learn to cope with triples and eight beat moves by doing Lindy -- is there really that much difference (hint click the link)? Isn't a whip pretty much a Lindy turn (modulo some nuanced timing).

Could you learn to dance slotted style by learning cross-body salsa -- there's only so many ways that you can go from A-to-B and move and turn, etc.

Just a thought.
SpinDr.

**Gadget** · 12th-April-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindr

...there's only so many ways that you can go from A-to-B and move and turn, etc....

What, you mean that people could get better at wcs by doing MJ

oooh heresy!

*clevedonboy* · 12th-April-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadget

What, you mean that people could get better at wcs by doing MJ

oooh heresy!

Julia & I were discussing the topic of WCS / MJ this morning and pondering why some Mjers have so much trouble with the footwork. It struck both of us that it seems harder to go from MJ to WCS than it is to begin WCS from scratch - perhaps peoples brains get "wired" to how a "dance" works. If you do a dance like MJ where you can forget your feet it seems to cause many brainfades when get told that you must do x,y,z with your feet to even do the simplest things in another dance form. I could be talking rubbish though.

To answer SpinDr's question about Lindy / WCS, it helps and hinders. The moves are familiar the timing is familiar, the more upright style doesn't take a lot to change to. The subtle differences in the lead and footwork can cause a few frustrations though.

timbp · 12th-April-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clevedonboy

Julia & I were discussing the topic of WCS / MJ this morning and pondering why some Mjers have so much trouble with the footwork. It struck both of us that it seems harder to go from MJ to WCS than it is to begin WCS from scratch - perhaps peoples brains get "wired" to how a "dance" works.

I'm sure there's a factor of brain wiring or muscle memory, but the teaching style may also matter. If you go from MJ to WCS and don't triple step at the appropriate time, I'm sure you'll hear about it. But if you go from WCS to MJ and triple where everyone else is single or double stepping, who is going to tell you you're wrong? (and are you wrong?)

**Rhythm King** · 12th-April-2006, 02:20 PM

It's not just about footwork, the shape is different. At first, MJ-ers new to WCS frequently move forwards towards each other after the first triple step, instead of anchoring in place/away. This seems to happen particularly after a couple of moves and the brain fills up. MJ-er leaders' footwork seems to be limited to "it doesn't matter which foot you step back on" or "step back on the left". Complete newbies don't have the backwards and forwards motion of MJ hard-wired into them.

Similalry there are differences in the shapes of similar moves between WCS and Lindy. For example, the Lindy Turn is a circular move and in the WCS whip, the lady moves straight up and down the track from A to B and back, whilst the lead gets out of her way and returns to the track in much the same place. It is useful to have done some Lindy, or indeed other styles, if only to learn the basics of accurate footwork, frame, lead, timing etc, which can be more relaxed in MJ.

**Sparkles** · 12th-April-2006, 02:34 PM

I know this doesn't really help you, FP, but I'm starting to agree that you are stuck

...

WCS is difficult, and I agree with Spikey Blond that it takes a long time to get to grips with the basics (I found the same was true for me). The thing is that I finally started to feel like I had the hang of it when I could do a 'little-and-often' approach. Because there's so much to pick up I found that workshops would fry my brain and I'd end up coming out of them worse than when I started (and feeling really fed up to boot). So I persevered by going to the classes, when they were weekly at Bisley, and then practicing with other people who were learning WCS at other events (just for one or two tracks) so that I didn't forget everything I learnt. I think I would have given up if it hadn't been for that.

So, unless you can find a beginner's course and then a weekly class, and then find people who are willing to practice with you in between classes, you might be, as you say, stuck. Of course, you may be very different to me and you may be fine learning some other way

KatieR · 13th-April-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkles

I

WCS is difficult, and I agree with Spikey Blond that it takes a long time to get to grips with the basics (I found the same was true for me). The thing is that I finally started to feel like I had the hang of it when I could do a 'little-and-often' approach. E]

I too had lots of trouble getting to grips with the basics of WCS. I dont get the chance to do any here in Adelaide, so fear that the few WCS skills I do have are slowly slipping from my already fragile memory. It took me nearly 6 months for a little light switch to go on and for my predominantly MJ brain got the idea.

**Minnie M** · 13th-April-2006, 12:58 PM

The only true way of learning a new style quickly is to detach yourself from all other styles whilst learning - with this method (with regular lessons) it shouldn't take any longer than about 3 months (remember when you first learnt MJ)

This would get the basics firmly in your head and then you could move on

However ................ now I have learnt MJ, I couldn't go three months without a real dancing fix

I have had the same problem with Lindy, that is why both my Lindy & WCS are very basic

Chef · 13th-April-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkles

IThe thing is that I finally started to feel like I had the hang of it when I could do a 'little-and-often' approach. Because there's so much to pick up I found that workshops would fry my brain and I'd end up coming out of them worse than when I started (and feeling really fed up to boot).

I so agree with this. I tried to learn WCS by going to the BIsley workshops but found that my brain was fried by the end of the session and by the time the next workshop came around I was more or less back at the beginning.

Even though I did a beginners course with Cat at Beach Boogie I had absolutely no hesitation doing the course again when I got the chance. I had learned enough by that time to know that I had to have a solid foundation of this dance to have any hope of being able to progress.

Looking back I can see that this has been exactly my experience with MJ and ballroom and latin so nowadays I am more prepared to put the effort required although it is no fun at all being back on the bottom of the learning curve.

Instant gratification it is not. When it starts to flow it is so joyous.

A detailed "learn basic WCS" DVD would have been so helpful to use between the classes.

10th-April-2006, 06:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
Feelingpink Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Greenwich, UK Posts: 1,603 Status: No Status Rep Power: 4 Rep.: 1325	Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass I was talking to another MJer today ... we've both done a few WCS classes and would like to do it more but haven't been able to nail the basics. The Dartford six-week "from scratch" course would have been great but the commute wouldn't have worked. RK has loaned me a Jordan & Tatiana DVD for Easter ... but I'm wondering if other forumites are in the same boat ... and how they're tackling this or have they just given up? Perhaps if there were enough of us, we could go to Cat or one of the other teachers for an afternoon or couple of afternoons. __________________ Better too much than not enough - Luis Rodriguez

10th-April-2006, 06:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
Msfab Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PhD land - Yippeee Posts: 1,102 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 650	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass Cat and Lee have regular WCS workshops, check out http://www.fusiondance.freeservers.com/custom.html. Paul warden and Cat have a monthy workshop in Bisley (http://www.jivebug.co.uk/) I havent yet done a workshop, but ive heard they are all very good for the WCS begginer. There are also a few I know that have had private lessons which are very useful. I find having a weekly lesson more useful to me - I can pick things up and keep them (info overload). Keep going the rewards of WCS are amazing __________________ Ditch the diplomacy, let’s dance! Smile...It confuses people (Sandi Thom)

10th-April-2006, 09:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
Minnie M Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Hove Actually Posts: 6,840 Status: Recycled Teenager Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 2047	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass You need a good lead to help you master the basics and give you confidence - if you can get to Southport, Robert Cordoba is happy to dance with all us ladies (and Deborah leads really well too) - you will be amazed how easy it is to follow him __________________ --ooOoo-- Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982) Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928. That date is recognized as her official birthday.

11th-April-2006, 10:36 AM	#9 (permalink)
Chef Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mayfield, East Sussex Posts: 928 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 1278	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass I had the same problem for ages. I would get a couple of WCS lessons at weekenders and go to the monthly workshops at Bisley. The only trouble was that there was too much time between the lessons and although I remembered most of the footwork patterns WCS is less forgiving of mistakes than MJ. I only needed to fluff or hesitate at little bit and I would lose the whole thing. The major breakthrough came when Cat did a six lesson beginner course at Beach Boogie. There was time and suitable music to practices between each lesson and not enough time between the lessons to forget the basic footwork patterns. It gave me the feeling that I really could get a grip on this dance style as well as the certain knowledge that this was a dance I really really wanted to do. After the Beach Boogie course it was back to the Bisley workshops and they were just not regular enough to keep my skills up to par. To cut a long story short I sort of badgered some local organisers (either you set up a class or I will) into running a WCS class, as they had been planning to do for a long time. This time I went on the beginners’ course and each week I made a video of the basic footwork patterns with as many notes on technique as I could remember from the class and then I used then to practice between the lessons. I also made a point of learning the womans footwork because for some reason the ladies would also come over to me to ask for a reminder of their footwork patterns. I still get funny looks when I am found in quiet corridors at work with my Ipod on, practising my footwork during lunch breaks. After all these years you would have thought that they would be used to me. For me, I found the beginners’ course to be absolutely vital. I also found that videoing and practicing the basic footwork patterns also to be vital. I also found that trying to switch between WCS and MJ within the same song was not possible for me. I found that I had to ditch MJ for about 4 weeks and only do WCS or my brain became hopelessly confused. Unfortunately the numbers of dancers at my weekly class have dropped and it doesn’t look like it will be commercially viable in the long term unless something can be done to attract more dancers (see the WCS in Dartford thread). If you can get Cat to do a beginners course then pay up front, bend heaven and earth to get to every class, practice the basic footwork patterns between classes, and immerse yourself only in WCS for a few weeks to avoid confusion. If any beginner finds themself at Dartford then I will do my best to help them, as other dancers have helped me. I really want to see the class that I go to each week survive and would be most fed up if the organisers feel they have to shut the classes down.

12th-April-2006, 12:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
spindr Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Basingstoke Posts: 1,564 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 688	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass Can you cross-train for WCS? Could you learn to cope with triples and eight beat moves by doing Lindy -- is there really that much difference (hint click the link)? Isn't a whip pretty much a Lindy turn (modulo some nuanced timing). Could you learn to dance slotted style by learning cross-body salsa -- there's only so many ways that you can go from A-to-B and move and turn, etc. Just a thought. SpinDr.

12th-April-2006, 02:20 PM	#15 (permalink)
Rhythm King Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: In London, by the Posts: 2,994 Status: Quo Rep Power: 4 Rep.: 1284	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass It's not just about footwork, the shape is different. At first, MJ-ers new to WCS frequently move forwards towards each other after the first triple step, instead of anchoring in place/away. This seems to happen particularly after a couple of moves and the brain fills up. MJ-er leaders' footwork seems to be limited to "it doesn't matter which foot you step back on" or "step back on the left". Complete newbies don't have the backwards and forwards motion of MJ hard-wired into them. Similalry there are differences in the shapes of similar moves between WCS and Lindy. For example, the Lindy Turn is a circular move and in the WCS whip, the lady moves straight up and down the track from A to B and back, whilst the lead gets out of her way and returns to the track in much the same place. It is useful to have done some Lindy, or indeed other styles, if only to learn the basics of accurate footwork, frame, lead, timing etc, which can be more relaxed in MJ. __________________ The hottest thing since Morton Thiokol used the Challenger to take teacher hazing into the Space Age...

12th-April-2006, 02:34 PM	#16 (permalink)
Sparkles Glitter Queen Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Camberwell, London Posts: 2,995 Status: No Status Rep Power: 4 Rep.: 1753	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass I know this doesn't really help you, FP, but I'm starting to agree that you are stuck ... WCS is difficult, and I agree with Spikey Blond that it takes a long time to get to grips with the basics (I found the same was true for me). The thing is that I finally started to feel like I had the hang of it when I could do a 'little-and-often' approach. Because there's so much to pick up I found that workshops would fry my brain and I'd end up coming out of them worse than when I started (and feeling really fed up to boot). So I persevered by going to the classes, when they were weekly at Bisley, and then practicing with other people who were learning WCS at other events (just for one or two tracks) so that I didn't forget everything I learnt. I think I would have given up if it hadn't been for that. So, unless you can find a beginner's course and then a weekly class, and then find people who are willing to practice with you in between classes, you might be, as you say, stuck. Of course, you may be very different to me and you may be fine learning some other way __________________ "Some people hope for a miracle cure, Some people just accept the world as it is" -Billy Joel "I'm going to miss you when you're gone" - Dan Hudson

13th-April-2006, 12:58 PM	#18 (permalink)
Minnie M Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Hove Actually Posts: 6,840 Status: Recycled Teenager Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 2047	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass The only true way of learning a new style quickly is to detach yourself from all other styles whilst learning - with this method (with regular lessons) it shouldn't take any longer than about 3 months (remember when you first learnt MJ) This would get the basics firmly in your head and then you could move on However ................ now I have learnt MJ, I couldn't go three months without a real dancing fix I have had the same problem with Lindy, that is why both my Lindy & WCS are very basic __________________ --ooOoo-- Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982) Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928. That date is recognized as her official birthday.

13th-April-2006, 01:34 PM	#20 (permalink)
DavidB The Oracle Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,144 Status: working too hard Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 1449	Re: Getting WCS beginner skills critical mass