WCS timing, swing timing

[Sheepman]

Perhaps a few pictures will help...

If you look at the wave form of a cha cha track, the beats are regular, it's not surprising that novices can't tell which count they should be triple stepping on!

The second wave form is for the Dynamic Breakers "Pride & Joy" strictly a blues track, but definitely one that swings, I've just shown a single triple here, which clearly shows that the interval between the "1 and" is longer than the interval between "and 2"

The third one is from Ciara's "1 2 step" definitely a great WCS track, but it doesn't "swing", the intervals (which are harder to make out - the letters below the wave correspond with the timing of the lyrics) are roughly equal.

I'm not about to take issue with Skippy Blair (!) but I think it is perfectly possible for WCS to feel great to many types of music. OK a cha cha expert will feel more comfortable doing cha when the music is right, does it have to be hip hop if I want to dance to modern RnB? But WCS is still a relatively new dance, and like MJ, it's adaptable, as can be seen by the development of Swango & Swamba... http://www.usaswingnet.com/swango.htm (were Amir and Cat beaten to it on this one? )

I hope that helps someone, 'cos sorting out the waves took ages, and has given me a sore head!

Greg

[Lynn]

Question - as a follow, do I need to know this sort of information? I used to think it was possible to just 'feel' the music - but I think I 'feel' the cha cha timing incorrectly (as in on 1 rather than on 2). So I guess I do need to think about it.

When the local beginners lindy teacher was telling the class that the triple in lindy had the same timing as cha cha, I knew it didn't sit right with the music but wasn't sure why in terms of fractions of beats etc, I just knew the timing was different.

I'd love to learn WCS (and be able to cha cha on 2), so I guess I'm going to have to think about all this, but how much do I need to get into theory, and how much can I just listen to the music and 'find my way'? (I know that depends on musical ability, I can hear things easily enough in music but have never studied the structure behind eg why music 'swings' or 'rocks'.)

[Alice]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Question - as a follow, do I need to know this sort of information? I used to think it was possible to just 'feel' the music - but I think I 'feel' the cha cha timing incorrectly (as in on 1 rather than on 2). So I guess I do need to think about it.

When the local beginners lindy teacher was telling the class that the triple in lindy had the same timing as cha cha, I knew it didn't sit right with the music but wasn't sure why in terms of fractions of beats etc, I just knew the timing was different.

I'd love to learn WCS (and be able to cha cha on 2), so I guess I'm going to have to think about all this, but how much do I need to get into theory, and how much can I just listen to the music and 'find my way'? (I know that depends on musical ability, I can hear things easily enough in music but have never studied the structure behind eg why music 'swings' or 'rocks'.)

I think, as with many things, that a little technical knowledge can enhance your dance (ooh look that rhymes!)- an understanding of why/how it works can help you play with the rules

However, the downside is that until that knowledge becomes automatic, there's a period of intense frustration cos you suddenly have to think about something you were doing automatically

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Alice

I think, as with many things, that a little technical knowledge can enhance your dance (ooh look that rhymes!)- an understanding of why/how it works can help you play with the rules

I think it would help.

Originally Posted by Alice

However, the downside is that until that knowledge becomes automatic, there's a period of intense frustration cos you suddenly have to think about something you were doing automatically

I'll admit to having been really lazy about the music side of things, because I haven't had to work too hard at it. I really should think about it a bit more.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Sheepman

Perhaps a few pictures will help...

If you look at the wave form of a cha cha track, the beats are regular, it's not surprising that novices can't tell which count they should be triple stepping on!

Remember that a Cha Cha (usually? always?) has a clave beat (on the 1, 2and, 4, 6, 7 for a 3/2 clave, for instance) which gives it a very different feel to a WCS or R'n'B track.

Originally Posted by Lynn

but I think I 'feel' the cha cha timing incorrectly (as in on 1 rather than on 2).

Listen for the clave and all will become clear. (example: listen to Michael Buble's "Save the Last dance for me": the clave (2/3, this time) starts 48 seconds in, and it's the tick-tick percussion sound.)

[timbp]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

A question that's been bothering me for a bit.

Are WCS triple-steps meant to be danced "swung" or "straight"?
Additionally, is WCS meant to be danced to music that is "swung" or "straight" or both?

Dance to the music you like, and let the music dicate whether you dance straight or swing.

Just had a day of workshops with Myles and Tessa (absolutely fantastic teachers). One session was musicology.

In one part of that class, they explained a bit about what "swing" means, then played 3 songs, all suitable for dancing WCS, for us to listen to the difference.

There was a swing song, to which one would dance (WCS 6 count) 1 2 3 a4 5 a6

A pop song (straight): 1 2 3 & 4 5 & 6

And a hip-hop: 1 2 a3 4 a5 6 or 1 2 a3 4 5 & 6

They did say you can dance straight to everything, but obviously it's better to match what the music is doing.

I hope I haven't seriously distorted what they were saying (I'm certain the bit about dancing to the music is right).

[Mr Cool]

Well ladies and Gents its all very well talking about musical phrases syncopations and the like.
However at the end of the day

It don't mean a thing (if you aint got that SWING) (Duke Ellington 1932)


Just feel the music and dance.

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Mr Cool

It don't mean a thing (if you aint got that SWING) (Duke Ellington 1932)

"Counting time ? The only count I know is Count Basie" Dawn Hampton vertern singer and dancer from the Savoy Club (often at local Swing weekends and at Herrange )

[Caro]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Are WCS triple-steps meant to be danced "swung" or "straight"?

I don't think there's really being a satisfactory answer on this question, apart from 'do what the music says, i.e. swung triples if the music swings'.

I got an answer by Robert Royston last week-end (feel free to disagree - but personally I'll take his advice on board), so here goes:

On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).
It also means that you will have more time to roll your foot through the downbeat.
Using rolling count it goes: 5 (step='half') and (step='half') a six (step='hold'). I think

So I guess you swung your triples in an opposite sort of way as in lindy (where you swing you do 5 (step) and a (step) six (step) - is that right?)

[Geordieed]

Originally Posted by Caro

On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).
It also means that you will have more time to roll your foot through the downbeat.
Using rolling count it goes: 5 (step='half') and (step='half') a six (step='hold'). I think

So I guess you swung your triples in an opposite sort of way as in lindy (where you swing you do 5 (step) and a (step) six (step) - is that right?)

Six is an upbeat though. The timing of WCS triples come in two different types. It depends on the music being danced to. The triple is devided into three or four sections. Basically it is the difference between old and new Swing. We dance in divisions of three for the modern style of Swing that we see today because of the music played. It will revert back to four with a delayed rhythm on the triple for old Swing music. When learning this the lecturer danced both rhythms to both kinds of music and showed how wrong it looks when you dance opposing styles.

[Caro]

Originally Posted by Geordieed

Six is an upbeat though.

of course it is, sorry - got confused with backbeat I think !

Originally Posted by Caro

On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).
It also means that you will have more time to roll your foot through the downbeat.

Please read UPBEAT here instead - I'm talking about the EVEN counts: 2,4,6,8. Apologies for messing up and if I have confused anybody

Originally Posted by Geordieed

It will revert back to four with a delayed rhythm on the triple for old Swing music. When learning this the lecturer danced both rhythms to both kinds of music and showed how wrong it looks when you dance opposing styles.

I think it would really help me to see that. Are you coming to Southport Ed ?

[angelique]

And there was me thinking that I had kinda got my head around this west coast swing stuff.......

Oh well, back to my box of jaffa cakes and a black n white movie...something I DO understand!

[Geordieed]

Hi Caro,


yes I am coming along to Southport. Look forward to catching up with you there. Southport this summer has the buzz about it from the last time Jordan and Tatiana came along. There are going to be quite a collection of dancers and some of the Line crowd have expressed that they are coming because of J&T making it over. The standard should be really high...

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Geordieed

It is the difference between old and new Swing.

Just to clarify, by "new Swing", do you mean "new West Coast Swing music", and thus music that doesn't swing?

[Crossa]

Originally Posted by Caro

I got an answer by Robert Royston last week-end (feel free to disagree - but personally I'll take his advice on board), so here goes:

On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).

Erm... It sounded like "half half whole" when he explained it to me, as in using the whole beat!

[Caro]

Originally Posted by Crossa

Erm... It sounded like "half half whole" when he explained it to me, as in using the whole beat!

cheers Crossa
but I'm pretty sure he did say 'hold'... Paul F was there (taking notes ) and that's what he wrote too!
Hold, whole... I'm sure it works to the same effect