What Ceroc does badly....

[David Bailey]

In balance to the "What Ceroc does well..." thread, I'd like to use this thread to constructively criticize Ceroc practices - basically, things which are done better by other dance organisations / teachers, and which Ceroc could learn from (again, not just other MJ-ers).

Again, I'll kick off with a couple:

• Slow dance development
  I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.
  <p>
• No assessment culture
  There's very little assessment / criticism given by teachers, at an individual level - groups are too large and too "wholesale" for this to happen, and the teachers are physically a long way away from their pupils, so it's difficult to spot individual problems anyway. Yes, taxi dancers can do this in review classes, but they're not CTA-trained teachers.

Next?

[Trouble]

let me explain what they do not do and i find this very unhelpful.

Cheshunt has just started a new class run by Gordan and Sally via Adam Natheson.

I am a taxi dancer and on the first wednesday, they offered a bargain of all newbies £1 entry fee. The second week however, for them to continue they have to pay the full wack. I find this quite unreal. We are trying to attract new people to venues and at least get them to quite a confident level to return week after week.

When i started i joined a Jive club. They did an offer of the first six weeks at reduced rates, cant remember what they were but thats why i went back because it was hardly costing my anything and wanted to keep giving it a go.

Why is this? - i can not understand it at all.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Trouble

let me explain what they do not do and i find this very unhelpful..

I moved this post to here for obvious reasons

[Cruella]

I'm having Deja-vu!
Now this post makes no sense! (No change there then)

[StokeBloke]

Just a personal gripe, but why do lots of intermediate classes start with the teacher saying "draw a semi-circle to the left and step back"? Is the ability to do this not a prerequisite for being in the intermediate class to start with

I also find the intermediate routines a blessing and a curse. I understand that you can only do so much in 30 minutes. We learn a three move routine of moves which I find hard sometimes to separate out into the component parts - and therefore hard to work into my freestyle. I do not want to get stuck pulling class routines in freestyle! It would be really useful for me occasionally to study one move and get it ingrained with lots of different ways of going into and coming out of that move. Is that just me, or do others feel similar?

[Achaeco]

More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.

[drathzel]

how about if people are going to say what is done badly they give suggestions as to how they would do it differently?

[JiveLad]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

Just a personal gripe, but why do lots of intermediate classes start with the teacher saying "draw a semi-circle to the left and step back"? Is the ability to do this not a prerequisite for being in the intermediate class to start with

I also find the intermediate routines a blessing and a curse. I understand that you can only do so much in 30 minutes. We learn a three move routine of moves which I find hard sometimes to separate out into the component parts - and therefore hard to work into my freestyle. I do not want to get stuck pulling class routines in freestyle! It would be really useful for me occasionally to study one move and get it ingrained with lots of different ways of going into and coming out of that move. Is that just me, or do others feel similar?

Yes - this is something I have felt for some time - and mentioned elsewhere......My feeling it is better to be able to do one thing well, rather than 3 things that you can remember bits of. Personally, I would prefer to just have 2 moves at Intermediate level.............and really repeat-repeat-repeat so it becomes embedded - then I have actually learned something and can apply it. While we're at it, I also want to be able to see a review of the lesson on line - with a video of the moves broken down. This is done by 'Dance Yourself Dizzy' - (check out the website - very good) - and it works very well (for me anyway).

See http://www.danceyourselfdizzy.com/Da...fDizzy.com.htm

[BeccaB]

Originally Posted by Achaeco

More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.

Here there's a big drive to get new people in to dancing resulting in 30 women extra etc. that the regulars and experienced dancers are finding somewhere else to go. I think a good mix is needed.

[tsh]

The intermediate classes appear to be presented in much the same way as the beginner classes. No assumption that you've done anything before. Just a handfull of fancy moves, with some tired and useless classic moves thrown in.

This could be improved if there were:
* more continuity from week to week (not the same move, but a similar move - I find this helps a lot for remembering how to make a lead work). It also teaches how to distinguish between similar moves.
* simple joins and a bit of padding (no need to labour the teaching, add a bit of style (by keeping it simple) - this should help using the moves in freestyle without using them as a routine.
* preference for leadable rather than choreographed moves, and fewer moves that you'd normally only use once in a dance.
* Try and teach people to freestyle in an intermediate class rather than just trying to entertain them. (this might conflict with wanting to sell workshops though)
* Make sure the level of the class matches the level of the participents. The expectation ought to be that most in the class ought to be able to use some of it in freestyle.

[Twirly]

Originally Posted by StokeBloke

I also find the intermediate routines a blessing and a curse. I understand that you can only do so much in 30 minutes. We learn a three move routine of moves which I find hard sometimes to separate out into the component parts - and therefore hard to work into my freestyle. I do not want to get stuck pulling class routines in freestyle! It would be really useful for me occasionally to study one move and get it ingrained with lots of different ways of going into and coming out of that move. Is that just me, or do others feel similar?

I've heard a lot of leads say similar things - think this is exactly the problem Beo is having actually. What I think would be useful is to have one of the three (or four or five - as we sometimes get at Clapham) moves repeated the following week each time (or maybe even for three weeks?), or the idea of having a core of classic intermediate moves which are taught on a rolling basis, but with some repetition.

It seems weird to me that Ceroc expect a beginner to learn the beginners moves over 6 weeks + with continued repetition of the same thing in beginners class then review class, yet somehow after 6 weeks and a transfer to intermediates they are supposed to remember the much more complex intermediate moves with no repetition whatsoever. And they aren't given any tools for learning how to remember and apply the moves either. Is there some magic spell cast that after 6 weeks at Ceroc you are suddenly able to master this complexity?

[StokeBloke]

Originally Posted by tsh

The intermediate classes appear to be presented in much the same way as the beginner classes. No assumption that you've done anything before. Just a handfull of fancy moves, with some tired and useless classic moves thrown in.

This could be improved if there were:
* more continuity from week to week (not the same move, but a similar move - I find this helps a lot for remembering how to make a lead work). It also teaches how to distinguish between similar moves.
* simple joins and a bit of padding (no need to labour the teaching, add a bit of style (by keeping it simple) - this should help using the moves in freestyle without using them as a routine.
* preference for leadable rather than choreographed moves, and fewer moves that you'd normally only use once in a dance.
* Try and teach people to freestyle in an intermediate class rather than just trying to entertain them. (this might conflict with wanting to sell workshops though)
* Make sure the level of the class matches the level of the participents. The expectation ought to be that most in the class ought to be able to use some of it in freestyle.

Maybe this would help with getting the 'casuals' who drift in towards the end of the intermediate class and start their night when the second session of freestyle starts. I know there are many reasons for this happening, but from conversations I have had, boredom is a major factor. It's criminal, all that dance experience going to waste

It actually turns the whole thing on it's head. When you start you aspire to the intermediate class, when you reach that point and settle in the next step 'forward(!!)' is to get to a point where you don't need the intermediate class and you can join the 'casuals'. This can't be the right message can it?

[TA Guy]

What Ceroc does badly is everything except get a load of people doing basic dancing very quickly.

[fletch]

Originally Posted by Achaeco

More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by drathzel

how about if people are going to say what is done badly they give suggestions as to how they would do it differently?

Good point - I did say "constructive criticism", after all...

So, on my own points:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Slow dance development
I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.

My suggestion to rectify this would be to start teaching technique classes, as standard - as workshops initially, then to aim to get this into the regular classes at some point. So, for example, adopt Franck's "technique" workshops, and get them offered across all franchises as part of the standard offerings (along with Beginners, Intermediate, etc.).

Franck's already done the hard work in developing these workshops, pay him some cash ( ) for the rights, and get started. Simple, really.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

No assessment culture
There's very little assessment / criticism given by teachers, at an individual level - groups are too large and too "wholesale" for this to happen, and the teachers are physically a long way away from their pupils, so it's difficult to spot individual problems anyway. Yes, taxi dancers can do this in review classes, but they're not CTA-trained teachers.

This one's a bit more tricky, but I'd suggest that, as with Ceroc in Australia, some kind of (non-intrusive and optional) assessment system would start to get people used to the concept of peer review and constructive criticism.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Slow dance development
I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.

Mmm. When I see clips of folks dancing Ceroc 10 years ago, I see a fair few changes. The music is slower now, and there's arguably less bouncing. Though I don't know how fast other dances have been changing.

Anyways, why is it bad for a dance to stay the same for a decade?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Mmm. When I see clips of folks dancing Ceroc 10 years ago, I see a fair few changes. The music is slower now, and there's arguably less bouncing. Though I don't know how fast other dances have been changing.

The "top end", sure - competition levels are definitely higher than they were. But frankly, that's not saying much compared to other dance forms.

I'm very much not convinced that the vast mass of dancers are doing anything different to what they were 10 years ago, however. There may be more dancers at the top end (say, 200 instead of 50), but there's still 50,000 others doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Anyways, why is it bad for a dance to stay the same for a decade?

Me.

Seriously, unless you're prepared to argue that Ceroc-style Modern Jive is the height of dance perfection, some form of continuous improvement would seem to be a sign of a vibrant dance culture.

[drathzel]

hi twirly

its a suggested 6 weeks and this varies from place to place. I think i remember glasgow venues being 12 weeks and i say 8 week.

My 8 week suggestion is only due to the fact my intermediate lessons arent (argueably sp?) hard. i try and keep my moves to under 14 beats and if i do teach on that long i will teach 2 other shorter moves. I only teach 3 on a regular bases and every few weeks a variation on a move that i taught previously will also appear.

maybe you and beo should try a class across the pond

[JiveLad]

Originally Posted by Twirly

What I think would be useful is to have one of the three (or four or five - as we sometimes get at Clapham) moves repeated the following week each time (or maybe even for three weeks?), or the idea of having a core of classic intermediate moves which are taught on a rolling basis, but with some repetition.

Yes, yes, yes...........just as beginners moves are repeated, then I would like to see a 'core' of classic intermediate moves taught on a rolloing basis as you describe...............this would make it easier the second time around. At the moment it is pretty much a unique lesson/set of moves on each intermediate.

Just as an aside, I didn't start going to intermediates until 10 weeks in (going twice a week)............and it is interesting that at some venues they explicitly say 'don't join intermediates until........6 weeks (typically) - and others they don't mention any criteria at all - on several occassions there have been week 1/2 beginners joining in.