Have Weekenders killed off the Workshop market

[Gus]

Time was when you’d put on a workshop a your club and you’d be inundated with people wanting to do them. Initially it was just the Big Boys, N&N, Viktor, Andy & Rena ….. but then a second tier market developed for local instructors. Money was made, skills were taught in small workshops, punter were happy and all was good.

THEN …. We had the explosion of weekenders. Why should someone spend #25 for a single workshop when they can go on a weekender and see a vats range of teachers and workshop subjects. Whether it’s the choice or the fact that people have no money left, its appears that the workshop market for local clubs had taken a real battering. A few local operators I know used to run 5 or 6 workshops a year. Now they are lucky to scrape two a year.

I had originally thought that weekenders would maybe develop the workshop market. Workshops at weekenders tend to be just oversized classes … its very hard to teach a true workshop with 200 odd dancers. Personally, I’ve always seen the weekender workshops more as ‘tasters’.

This model did originally help to promote local workshops. Dancers in the N West first saw Amir at the 2001 (?) Jive Spree. When I booked him to come up there was tremendous interest. Without the Amir’s appearance at the Weekender there would have not been that interest. But now, I’m not sure the weekenders are helping. The workshops are (IMHO) tending to show part of what can be achieved without allowing the teachers the closer relationship with the dance student to help them to actually learn how to do it. For this I feel you really need a ‘proper’ workshop.

Fair comment?

[ducasi]

I don't think I've seen a drop in the number or quality of premier workshops (i.e. those with invited high-profile teachers) run by Ceroc Scotland. Perhaps I am not looking back far enough?

[Bluey]

Originally Posted by Gus

Time was when you’d put on a workshop a your club and you’d be inundated with people wanting to do them. Initially it was just the Big Boys, N&N, Viktor, Andy & Rena ….. but then a second tier market developed for local instructors. Money was made, skills were taught in small workshops, punter were happy and all was good.

THEN …. We had the explosion of weekenders. Why should someone spend #25 for a single workshop when they can go on a weekender and see a vats range of teachers and workshop subjects. Whether it’s the choice or the fact that people have no money left, its appears that the workshop market for local clubs had taken a real battering. A few local operators I know used to run 5 or 6 workshops a year. Now they are lucky to scrape two a year.


Fair comment?

very true, numbers are down I believe in many clubs?

[stewart38]

I often find workshops aren’t give a hard sell

Often at the end of a intermediates class its

There is some workshop , do we know the dates /venue type vacant look

Oh go check front desk etc

[Dance Demon]

Originally Posted by Gus

But now, I’m not sure the weekenders are helping. The workshops are (IMHO) tending to show part of what can be achieved without allowing the teachers the closer relationship with the dance student to help them to actually learn how to do it. For this I feel you really need a ‘proper’ workshop.

Fair comment?

So you wouldn't want a booking to teach at a weekender Gus?.....or does the size of the weekender have a part to play? How long should a"proper workshop" last?....just curious

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

So you wouldn't want a booking to teach at a weekender Gus?.....or does the size of the weekender have a part to play? How long should a"proper workshop" last?....just curious

I've never been to a class in a weekender which I'd call a workshop - there are simply too many people there. Weekender classes are generally poor-quality in terms of learning, no matter who's doing the teaching.

A decent workshops should have, IMO, less than 20 people, so that the teachers can give at least some individual attention to each couple.

[Franck]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I've never been to a class in a weekender which I'd call a workshop - there are simply too many people there. Weekender classes are generally poor-quality in terms of learning, no matter who's doing the teaching.

This is why the Blaze Week-ender is great in my (biased) opinion
With around 400 dancers each class is more manageable and everyone stands a much better chance to dance with all the top teachers invited over the course of the week-end; rather than fight with 800 women for a chance to dance with Michael Kielbasa, Jordan, etc.

In May, there were around 40 people at some of the (admittedly early) classes with Ben & Carla, so great value.

As Ducasi said, I don't think the Week-enders have killed off the workshop market, though it gets more and more difficult to avoid clashes. This week-end alone we're having 3 workshops on the same day in Scotland: A beginners workshop, a Classic Intermediate and a Focus workshop on pre-leads & body positioning... The Beach Ballroom in November is booking fast already (with Marc & Rachel) so it seems the appetite for quality workshops is still present and that more and more people, like yourself, only attend the large week-enders for the 24 hour freestyle or for the social side rather than to learn anything.

[JiveLad]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

A decent workshops should have, IMO, less than 20 people, so that the teachers can give at least some individual attention to each couple.

Having said that - the last workshop I attended had nearer 50 attending - so it was popular - but turned out to be more like an extended lesson as there was no 1:1 tutoring.

The workshops before that I attended were all 20 or less.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

So you wouldn't want a booking to teach at a weekender Gus?.....or does the size of the weekender have a part to play? How long should a"proper workshop" last?....just curious

I've taught on a number of weekenders ... just not in the UK To be honest I don't like teaching to large numbers ... just a personal thing. I find it hard to teach the subjects that interest me to a mass mob.

Taking your second point, depends on the numbers. If there is more than, say, 40 dancers, it becomes more of a class. You can't teach the more intricate stuff like drops, interpretation to a class of 100 but you can teach them 'moves'. I suppose it also is a function of the experience of the dancers and how much time you can spend with them individually. I'm sure one of the Forum Geeks could provide a suitable equation to define the complexity that can be taught as a function of such variable as dancer experience, visibility of instructor, numbers in class etc

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Franck

This is why the Blaze Week-ender is great in my (biased) opinion
With around 400 dancers each class is more manageable and everyone stands a much better chance to dance with all the top teachers invited over the course of the week-end;

Have to agree. Despite my reservations elsewhere I though the lower numbers in the classes made for a far better learning experience. To date its been the only weekender where I actual gained a significant amount from the workshops. Would have been even better if the teachers had room to swing a cat on stage

[Dance Demon]

Surely there must be a financial aspect to consider when running workshops though. Smaller numbers might be better for learning purposes, but any organiser would surely want enough people attending to cover the cost of bringing in the likes of N&N, Phil & Yuko, Amir, et al. My original question was asked because I know you are teaching at dance Fever in Perth in November, and wondered if you saw your teaching slots as classes, or workshops.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

My original question was asked because I know you are teaching at dance Fever in Perth in November, and wondered if you saw your teaching slots as classes, or workshops.

Fair point. It will very much depend on the size of class and expertise. I hope they will be workshops. that give some the chance to give 1:1 coaching and ensure that dnacers understand the underlying concepts. If there are a horde of people it will be more a case of show a move or concept and hope they can understand and pick it up. The Blues XXX workshop works well with a larger class but the Style and Back to Basics really need closer tuition.

The reason I mention dancers expertise is because it really helps if the dancers are experienced in dance basis and open to being challenged. In NZ they grade the dancers and I did a aerials class with Paul T, aimed at the top dancers. At first I thought there were way too many on the class. However, due to him being a superb instructor, and the dancers all being top level it turned out to be a very informative and well controlled workshop.

[Rock Princess]

has it occured to anyone that if the workshops are not being filled then the customer is not being offered what they want. Simple economics I would have said.

I also seem to remember that when Gus (or it could have been blitz with Gus with a hand in it, so to speak) ran a workshop with Victor and Lydia the class was quite large.

Most people realise that weekender classes are tasters and if they like something go and find classes and workshops to have more training. You only have to look at the expansion of WCS to see that this is so.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Gus

Would have been even better if the teachers had room to swing a cat on stage

What did Stray ever do to you?

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Rock Princess

I also seem to remember that when Gus (or it could have been blitz with Gus with a hand in it, so to speak) ran a workshop with Victor and Lydia the class was quite large.

The maximum we used to have for the Gorgeous Gus workshops was 45 ... the problem for one workshop (back in 2002 ?) in particular (which was run in conjunction with Blitz) wasn't so much the numbers as we used a venue that Blitz had recommended. Like a muppet I hadn't checked it for myslef ... and yup, it was too small. Not a good result but we were still learning ... chalk it up to experience. Having aid that, Viktor's workshops were mainly moves based and so leant themselves more to larger class sizes. When we ran Amir and Kate's Jango workshops we were very aware of the complexity and kept the classes to 40 dancers max.

From a promoters point of view here will always be a trade off between numbers and quality ... its a fact of life. The problem we had is that you could charge nearly as much for a 2nd or 3rd tier local instructor as you could for the likes of Viktor or Amir. Punters just didn't want to pay premium rates for premium instructors. No logic.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Gus

The problem we had is that you could charge nearly as much for a 2nd or 3rd tier local instructor as you could for the likes of Viktor or Amir. Punters just didn't want to pay premium rates for premium instructors. No logic.

No, it's completely logical - MJ punters are conditioned by Ceroc to expect a similar standard for most teachers, so don't see the point of paying extra, because they're not used to vast differentials in teaching ability.

Personally, I'd pay a lot of money for a workshop with the right teacher, but only if the workshop size were under (say) 20 - 40 people is really too many IMHO.

But given the choice, I'd prefer to pay (say) £40 for an hour's private lesson, than £30 for a four-hour workshop.

[Franck]

Originally Posted by Rock Princess

has it occured to anyone that if the workshops are not being filled then the customer is not being offered what they want. Simple economics I would have said.

That is true up to a point, the customer might not know exactly what they want, it takes a long time to foster interest in technique, style and musicality, rather than 'yet another dips & drops, flash moves, etc.' workshop.

Originally Posted by Dance Demon

Surely there must be a financial aspect to consider when running workshops though. Smaller numbers might be better for learning purposes, but any organiser would surely want enough people attending to cover the cost of bringing in the likes of N&N, Phil & Yuko, Amir, et al.

The financials are important, but it also depends on your motivations as an organiser. When I started the Beach Ballroom week-ends, I wanted to invite teachers I could learn from, so that I would improve both as a dancer and as a teacher. As a result, I was less worried about covering the full cost as I was prepared to invest in my own training and bringing up top teachers was more convenient (and beneficial to everyone in Scotland who booked too) than me arranging private classes with them.
For example I learnt much more from Stefano & Alexandra (Tango in action) at the 2 week-ends they taught at the Beach Ballroom than I would have if I'd flown to London and got a couple of hours private lessons.
I'm now looking forward to learning from Marc & Rachel in November as I love their teaching style and over the week-end I'll be able to immerse myself into it over the 4 workshops (not to mention the after party parties and dances with Rachel )

Originally Posted by Gus

Have to agree. Despite my reservations elsewhere I though the lower numbers in the classes made for a far better learning experience. To date its been the only weekender where I actual gained a significant amount from the workshops. Would have been even better if the teachers had room to swing a cat on stage

Yes the stage in the second room was a bit small, but it wasn't much of a problem for most classes. Most teachers were in fact able to teach on the dance floor, hands on, which in my opinion is the best way!
As I'm working on the workshops timetable for Blaze 2, I am glad we'll have relatively low numbers for the classes and teachers I've booked, allowing the topics to be more focused and more adventurous:
- Michael & Jennifer will be teaching 'Compression is hard to resist': Technical connection concepts for all levels
"Smooth & cool": Smoothing out your footwork technique
"Advanced footwork": More complex footwork styling
"Musicality Magic: Understanding music and applying the advanced footwork taught in previous workshop"
"Funk it up, Funk it down styling": Developing a funkier style of dancing
"What's hot, what's not" The new and old and how to advance your style and technique.

- Lucky Skillen will be teaching Fishing - Give a man a fish, and he’ll eat for a day; teach a man to fish, and he’ll dance for a lifetime. In this class you will learn how to lead by mimicking your follow’s natural creative movement.
Step Around Series (AKA: I got the Power) - this class teaches you how to create and use centrifugal force to enhance the dynamics of your dancing.
Ballroomin’ bash - “Ballroomin’ Blues” is a vintage style of blues inspired by the ballroom standard Foxtrot. In “Ballroomin’ Bash” we will expand on these concepts by adding some playful lifts and turns.
Flip, Flop and Fly - Using exercises in shared weight bearing and partner connection, this class will teach fun lifts and dips to add to your dancing.