Dance Accidents

[Minnie M]

There appears to be so many dance accidents - what happens if the accident stops you from working

At Daventry I got kicked very badly (I'm OK now) which prevented me from dancing the rest of the week, thankfully I was OK for driving - but it could have been worse

At Rebel Yell on Saturday Suzie got wacked on the nose (how you feeling now Suzie ) poor thing, she thought it might have been broken

Although these were accidents and certainly were not intentional, however if they stopped you from working and earnng money

can you sue ?
or
can you get compensation from your insurance ?

[Vegetable]

u no what i hate.....

I lead with 1 finger......
And begginers feel the need 2 grasp it like they are hanging off a cliff and the onli thing saving them is my 1 finger.. i fear it will get broken soon

No sexual refrenses in what i just said thanks

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Minnie M

There appears to be so many dance accidents - what happens if the accident stops you from working

Ceroc carry group Public Liability Insurance for all their venues, apparently. However, I'm not sure if it's mandatory, so some independent operators may not do so.

Originally Posted by Minnie M

can you sue ?

You can always sue - that is, take to a small claims court - any people or organisations if you want. The question is, will you win? I guess it's like any accident. If someone bumps into you on the street by accident, and knocks you down, then I assume the burden of proof is to demonstrate that they were acting carelessly or in a dangerous manner.

Similarly in dancing. I reckon the only realistic chance you'd have, is if you could prove recklessness - for example, if a couple were doing aerials in a crowded Ceroc venue and caused an accident, the person injured would presumably have a case against both the couple (for dangerous behaviour) and against Ceroc (for permitting such dangerous behaviour).

Simple bumps / kicks / treading-on-toes, unfortunately, are commonplace - even if they caused excessive injury. But, you can still claim under PLI.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Similarly in dancing. I reckon the only realistic chance you'd have, is if you could prove recklessness - for example, if a couple were doing aerials in a crowded Ceroc venue and caused an accident, the person injured would presumably have a case against both the couple (for dangerous behaviour) and against Ceroc (for permitting such dangerous behaviour).

In all the years I've been doing this, never heard of a single successful claim. There were rumours back in '95 of a lass suing a lad at the Central club for breaking her shin ... but think that was just a rumour. Then there was the (infamous case of a Ceroc instructor being sued by a LeRoc instructor re a back injury that was alleged to be caused by a drop ... again, nothing further was heard. Again and again I've had friends hurt by morons doing bad drops and lifts ... but no-one will actually take it further. Where is the Accident Group when yo need them

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Gus

In all the years I've been doing this, never heard of a single successful claim. There were rumours back in '95 of a lass suing a lad at the Central club for breaking her shin ... but think that was just a rumour. Then there was the (infamous case of a Ceroc instructor being sued by a LeRoc instructor re a back injury that was alleged to be caused by a drop ... again, nothing further was heard. Again and again I've had friends hurt by morons doing bad drops and lifts ... but no-one will actually take it further. Where is the Accident Group when yo need them

I know for certain that there has been a successful court case where an injured teacher managed to sue the venue for an injury caused by a dangerous gap in steps onto a stage: the organiser was also held partly liable - I think he was asked to pay 10% of the damages although I'm less certain of the actual percentage (I was told, but I'm not certain I remember correctly - old age ). I also know for certain that an organiser settled out of court when a lady broke her wrist tripping on some badly constructed temporary flooring.

And my advice to Kyron is to vary your lead to suit your partner. If you partner has a nice light follow and doesn't grip it's OK to lead with one finger. If she's a yanker or a gripper you need to use all your fingers and, in extreme circumstances, both hands

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Minnie M

Although these were accidents and certainly were not intentional, however if they stopped you from working and earnng money

can you sue ?
or
can you get compensation from your insurance ?

Don't know.

But I'd hazard a guess that you might get less dances if you start suing your partners

[wigglebum]

I think the whole idea is ridiculous. British public starting to think like the americans and sue everyone for everything. No one can take responsibilty for their own actions. Including making a concious decision to start learning a dance where arms and legs and elbows are always moving. Its a risk you agree to when you start learning to dance.

On the other hand, if you fall because the floor is slippy or has holes everywhere then I believe it should be a partnered effort between the MJ company and the dancer against the venue for not providing the required service.

Im waiting for some idiot to sue because its to hot and gives people headaches. What do you want the organisors to do, maybe dispence an industrial sized A/C unit from where the sun doesnt shine on a weekly basis.

Forgive me. If I over hear another stupid person complaining about more stupid things I might just throw my 2nd dummy out the pram.

Hope everyone is having a good day.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by wigglebum

I think the whole idea is ridiculous. British public starting to think like the americans and sue everyone for everything. No one can take responsibilty for their own actions.

OK ... then take the scenario of a close friend of you gets grabbed by a numpty to dance. 30 seconds into the dance he throws her into a drop which ends up her hitting the floor and being concussed. Your response wuold be ........ ?

[wigglebum]

Hello Gus!!!

How you doing? Youve never responded to my better halfs email she sent you! :-)

My response wouldnt be sue the dance venue! I know a guy that I dont see anymore thankfully, that thought despite being told to go easy on the drops, would get as close to the floor as possible. I think a reasonable dancer wouldnt get into the position where they could injure. The guys like in my example are the dancers that think they have brilliant leads when often not and generally have the opinion they are the best dancer in the world. These are the dangerous people that cause problems and i dont think a venue should be made responsible for it.

I feel sorry for suzie this weekend though, i saw what happened and felt the shock from 3 people away. Stopped my dance and went to help her.

Thats a case of a genuine accident, not many men are used to dancing with someone quite that tall! lol

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by wigglebum

I think the whole idea is ridiculous. British public starting to think like the americans and sue everyone for everything. No one can take responsibilty for their own actions. Including making a concious decision to start learning a dance where arms and legs and elbows are always moving. Its a risk you agree to when you start learning to dance.

Strangely enough, no. I'm fairly sure no one explained to me then - or now, for that matter - that dancing can be dangerous.

Originally Posted by wigglebum

Forgive me. If I over hear another stupid person complaining about more stupid things I might just throw my 2nd dummy out the pram.

Seems to be a lot of that at the moment...

But:

Originally Posted by Gus

OK ... then take the scenario of a close friend of you gets grabbed by a numpty to dance. 30 seconds into the dance he throws her into a drop which ends up her hitting the floor and being concussed.

A similar scenario is that a friend gets dropped from an aerial, gets knocked unconscious, has to take some time off work, has brain scans, many tests, associated stress and worry, and can't dance for three solid months after that.

That's not imaginary, it has happened to a friend of mine this year, and (I think) it's the reason why Ceroc have banned aerials in social dancing.

Another acquaintance broke her arm at a venue a few weeks back, through slipping on the floor.

And I've lost count of the number of long-term dancers I know who've had joint pain, muscle injuries or other problems.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by wigglebum

I feel sorry for suzie this weekend though, i saw what happened and felt the shock from 3 people away. Stopped my dance and went to help her.

Out of morbid curiosity ... how does a normal sized guy manage to hit someone who is 6'2" so hard in the nose that its a suspected break?? I would have to try REALLY hard to do that if I was trying to it.

[wigglebum]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Strangely enough, no. I'm fairly sure no one explained to me then - or now, for that matter - that dancing can be dangerous.

lol, your not one of these people that have to have a message on a cup of coffee to say its hot!! Poor mcdonalds, some idiot gets a cup of coffee and because it doesnt say HOT burns themselves.

Thats no dig btw but honestly in the mcdonalds example dont you think its silly.

The floor example you gave is a good case I think, but should be made against the venue not the MJ company.

[wigglebum]

Originally Posted by Gus

Out of morbid curiosity ... how does a normal sized guy manage to hit someone who is 6'2" so hard in the nose that its a suspected break?? I would have to try REALLY hard to do that if I was trying to it.

lol, i know.

I think he was tryin to reach over her heard whilst doing a pretzle or something. it looked pretty nasty!

[Gus]

Originally Posted by wigglebum

My response wouldnt be sue the dance venue! I know a guy that I dont see anymore thankfully, that thought despite being told to go easy on the drops, would get as close to the floor as possible. I think a reasonable dancer wouldnt get into the position where they could injure.

Thats the whole point ... the dancers who regularly inflict these injuries aren't reasonable .... usually its an ego thing. A similar-ish thing happened to my mate ... but I won't go over it again as last time the person concerned ended up threatening me and I wouldn't want to get in trouble again Oh .. and the venues concerned actively promote drops etc ... so how about we bring a class action against them

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by wigglebum

lol, your not one of these people that have to have a message on a cup of coffee to say its hot!! Poor mcdonalds, some idiot gets a cup of coffee and because it doesnt say HOT burns themselves.

I suspect you're remembering an urban myth with that one.

From here:

• McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.
  
• McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.
  
• McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.
  
• McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.
  
• McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.
  
• McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)
  
• McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media.
  
• McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

Reading that, do you still think that the case was Litigation Gone Mad?

Originally Posted by wigglebum

Thats no dig btw but honestly in the mcdonalds example dont you think its silly.

No, because, again:
The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.

And that seems fairly serious to me. I think I'd also want some compensation for that. Wouldn't you?

Originally Posted by wigglebum

lThe floor example you gave is a good case I think, but should be made against the venue not the MJ company.

In that case, no legal action was taken, nor was (I believe) any compensation or insurance claim made. Most people are sensible.

Originally Posted by Gus

Oh .. and the venues concerned actively promote drops etc ... so how about we bring a class action against them

I reckon we need to get Andy McGregor starting a "no-aerials" campaign. Hey, it worked with smoking...

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Gus

Out of morbid curiosity ... how does a normal sized guy manage to hit someone who is 6'2" so hard in the nose that its a suspected break?? I would have to try REALLY hard to do that if I was trying to it.

Oooh, it's just-like CSI.

Perhaps, tall people have to crouch down sometimes to dance with shorter people?

SpinDr

[Ghost]

On Monday at Bow, Dan taught a very gentle dip. The guy could completely walk away as the lady was taking 100% of her own weight. Dan in his own words "laboured the point" about safety in dips and mentioned drops and aerials too and how you can get badly hurt. So I think the people were fairly warned - whether they were listening or not is another matter, but he can only do so much.

[Twirly]

Originally Posted by wigglebum

The floor example you gave is a good case I think, but should be made against the venue not the MJ company.

I wonder who does have responsibility here - the venue, or the MJ company for agreeing to use that venue? You've paid your money to the MJ company, so you are their customer - aren't they the ones responsible for your safety therefore? And it begs the often discussed question as to who is responsible for the state of the floor. I wonder whose insurance would be liable?

I also think there's a difference between sudden injuries caused as a result of an accident, and the state of a floor causing wear and tear on joints and limbs over a period of time - I suspect that you'd have more success with the former claim. I suspect that it would be hard to prove that the injuries caused by wear and tear (did you only dance at one venue, what other activities/health issues such as weight might have contributed?) - besides, it's fairly common knowledge that dancers, sports people, etc, are more likely to sustain all sorts of injuries through wear and tear, so it could be argued that if you wanted to avoid that problem, you shouldn't have been dancing in the first place.

Anyway, be careful - if we complain too loudly, MJ companies might make us all start helmets when we dance