Evolution of Dance

[Amir]

The evolution of dance

Clearly dance forms evolve, change and grow. What the dance historian always struggles with is why, and what were the most important agents of change. So I thought it would be interesting to see if it is possible to examine at least one fairly obvious change in modern jive development which is recent enough for most of us to remember.

Without having researched it, I’m going to start with the claim that amongst some circles, smoothness is valued in modern jive more today than say in the 80s. Some people would say that it is more widely valued today than even just five years ago. I would be interested to hear, from people who used to dance less smooth than they do now, when did this become an important factor in their dancing, and why.

For me it was a combination of

a) Rachel, a Ceroc NZ teacher, telling me that in order to improve I should stop bouncing my hand up a down to keep the beat, around 1998.
b) learning tango around 1999, and appreciating a smoother style of moving and wondering what I could take from this and use in Ceroc.


So… if you are a dancer who values a smooth quality in your dancing, can you tell me since when, and why - what did you see or hear for you to value this.

It would be great to see some people who don’t normally post contributing to this thread.

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by Amir

a) Rachel, a Ceroc NZ teacher.....,

That would be Raechel

Unfortunately I started dancing recently enough that I've not seen any evolution so far, but this looks like it has the potential to be an interesting thread.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Amir

The evolution of dance

Clearly dance forms evolve, change and grow. What the dance historian always struggles with is why, and what were the most important agents of change. So I thought it would be interesting to see if it is possible to examine at least one fairly obvious change in modern jive development which is recent enough for most of us to remember.

Without having researched it, I’m going to start with the claim that amongst some circles, smoothness is valued in modern jive more today than say in the 80s. Some people would say that it is more widely valued today than even just five years ago. I would be interested to hear, from people who used to dance less smooth than they do now, when did this become an important factor in their dancing, and why. ...

So… if you are a dancer who values a smooth quality in your dancing, can you tell me since when, and why - what did you see or hear for you to value this...

Great idea for a thread, shame about the title.

It seems to me that you are asking about views mostly on the evolution of "smoothness" in MJ, not the wider aspects.

As to that subject I have a very restricted knowledge. I learned MJ firstly in Ceroc Central, and brought into it my bouncy Trad Jive style. I like bouncing .

I first saw really smooth MJ when Janie Cronin came to St. Neots.

It seems to me that the Michaela, Emma et al style of MJ had grown faster in a far less populous region that the Cronin, Viktor, Mike Ellard et al smoother style in the London area, and that "smooth" may be preferred by dancers, but more vigorous "bounce" may be preferred by people. Most significantly, by younger people.

[martingold]

Originally Posted by Amir

So… if you are a dancer who values a smooth quality in your dancing, can you tell me since when, and why - what did you see or hear for you to value this.

Having danced with lory on friday night at camber storm weekender i came away thinking she didnt really enjoy dancing with me (sorry lory) as i was of the rotation and move based mj which was all i had ever been shown or in reality seen

Whenever i dance all i am really interested in is that whoever i dance with is happy I dont care if i look good personally so i watched people very carefully over the weekend and went to a couple of interesting workshops on the lines of slot and blues
Sunnybunny gave me a few tips so i tried to change my dance
At about 1 am Monday morning i danced with someone in the and the whole concept of move less dancing clicked now its all i really want to do as now move based rotation seems boring (unless done to an ultra fast track)

So for that i want to thank Lory for not enjoying the dance and making me take note sunnybunny for slapping me around a bit and fletch and jay jay for dancing with me twice (always a bad move)

[Lee Bartholomew]

I used to dance quite bouncy. YouTube - Lee and nic dancing Ceroc Modern Jive . For me the whole wanting to dance smooth came from people talking about it on the forum, seeing them dance at weekenders and prob, most importantly, from watching WCS clips on youtube.

I can't claim dancing WCS has taught me slotted smooth dancing as I have not done any WCS classes (except one beginners one at Southport) but I think that has prob been the biggest influence in MJ since I sarted dancing just over 2 years ago.

Dont have any recent vids but this was taken 7 months after the first and after getting in to watching WCS on youtube. YouTube - me and Witty Ceroc

Neither of of particulary great dancing but I look at the first and it is awfull. Spinning has got a hell of alot better and I take up less space

[TA Guy]

I can't honestly say it was anyone thing for me. More a progression. I mean, can't speak for the eighties, but in the early, middle nineties, there were always smooth dancers around to aspire to. Smoothness was always a virtue, just not the only one

(You could argue there are more smooth dancers now, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that statement, but I think it's very skewed by the rise of Blues and the general slowdown in MJ. Far easier to dance smoother to Marvin and Miles than Jailhouse Rock )

It does seem to have become more important to 'be smooth'. To fit in with the 'in-crowd', but it's always been around. MJ just seemed to be more tolerant of other styles back then. So 'smoothness' wasn't shouted about so much, and of course, there were no forums to preach the word Or perhaps they were actually better dancers back then, more able to adapt to different styles ? It's a thought

[Caro]

Well I haven't danced that long - about 3.5 years - but yet I think it's interesting that I made the journey from bouncing (I think) to smooth fairly early on, and at the time I wasn't on the forum, nor was I travelling and exposed much to different styles / more advanced dancers. It all happened in Aberdeen in a fairly small community, with little external influence.

Yet I remember very clearly how it started - you know when you have that significant a light bulb moment.

It just took a couple of seconds, I was dancing with a much better dancer than I was, at a sunday 'chilled out party' (i.e. music was slower than normal, I'd have to be grateful to Franck and Sheena for that), and he led a sway. Because the music was so slow, I found myself having the time to drag my foot on the floor before collecting - funny it seemed to fit the mood of the music too (at that time I had no idea what musicality was). I remember the smile on my face - it felt so good.
Although suddendly I found that my blochs were sort of inadequate

So I guess my point is that it could be that smoothness is not just a 'group' phenomenon and that individuals can also make the journey with little external influence.
Personally I'm probably just lazy: it takes a lot less effort to be smooth rather than bouncy. The fact that (IMO) it looks and feels better is just bonus.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Caro just made a point that I thought alittle while ago..

I have seen lots of people get changed from shoes in to dance trainers and all of a sudden bounce alot more.

I dont own dance trainers. Maybe someone who does could shed some light on this??

[martingold]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

Caro just made a point that I thought alittle while ago..

I have seen lots of people get changed from shoes in to dance trainers and all of a sudden bounce alot more.

I dont own dance trainers. Maybe someone who does could shed some light on this??

i own Blochs and i dont think i bounce
well certainly not to a smooth track anyway

[Caro]

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

I have seen lots of people get changed from shoes in to dance trainers and all of a sudden bounce alot more.

Related discussion on 'how much do dance shoes influence your style?'

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Caro

Personally I'm probably just lazy: it takes a lot less effort to be smooth rather than bouncy. The fact that (IMO) it looks and feels better is just bonus.

I don't think I was ever bouncy. I was always being told that I should add a little bounce to my dancing, but I always thought it was naff and was one more thing to think about, when I was struggling already.

Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

I have seen lots of people get changed from shoes in to dance trainers and all of a sudden bounce alot more.

I dont own dance trainers. Maybe someone who does could shed some light on this??

I started in hard-soled trainers, went to Blochs, then suede soles, then leather soles. I still dance in all of them, depending on the floor conditions. I don't notice any difference in myself, but other people might see something.

[DavidB]

I was first taught by Janie Cronin in the mid-80s, and there was no bounce in the style she taught. However the only other regular Ceroc class at the time was at Busby's on Charing Cross Road, and I have a feeling that the style there was a bouncier. (I didn't go that often so I might be mistaken.) In the big freestyles at the time you would see a subtle bounce across the whole floor. In the '90s I noticed this bounce became a lot more prominent, but never thought anything of it.

(I can't remember what the connection was like. At the time I don't even think I'd heard the word 'connection' in a dance context.)

By the late '90s I was starting to learn about connection, and the long-term problems that can arise from a forceful lead. That was when I changed my dancing, although as we never taught, we wouldn't have had any influence on anyone else. I suspect it was the likes of Nigel & Nina who learned it independently of us and started to spread the word.

The mid-late '90s was about the same time that musicality, late night dancing at weekenders, and regular WCS nights all started.

By the time Hipsters started, I would be surprised to dance with someone who bounced a lot.

David

[Astro]

Originally Posted by Amir

The evolution of dance

Clearly dance forms evolve, change and grow. What the dance historian always struggles with is why, and what were the most important agents of change.

b) learning tango around 1999, and appreciating a smoother style of moving and wondering what I could take from this and use in Ceroc.

I don't know how I know, but I always thought Tango was "invented" by African Americans while they were living in slave quarters. Don't think they danced it in Africa, but it grew out of a need to dance to express their disapora. Tango is pretty sombre and passionate, reflecting the misery of slavery.

Everyone on the forum says it's an Argentinian folk dance.

Amir, you've been to Buenos Aries, the city which claims Tango as originating there, what is the truth of the matter? Did the slave masters, watch and steal the dance?

So… if you are a dancer who values a smooth quality in your dancing, can you tell me since when, and why - what did you see or hear for you to value this.

For me, I danced with smooth leads and enyoyed them best, so I had to adapt to them.

[Cornish Pixie]

I have only been dancing about four years but i know the exact time when i switched my style. I never bounced loads but i definately used to rotate(one of my teachers used to tell me to rotate!)

Dancing in cornwall there isnt a constant stream of inspiration and id never seen slotted or smooth before. However then i went dancing in london and loved how much better slotted looked, mostly for the playing it allowed. But the main guy who was an influence in slotted smooth was marc forster, the things he could do within a slot were amazing. I did one of his workshops that included cross directional leading and i was away!

Nick

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by DavidB

........The mid-late '90s was about the same time that musicality, late night dancing at weekenders, and regular WCS nights all started

Pleae note: WCS is NOT new in the UK - it has just been very slow to get going

[Amir]

Originally Posted by DavidB

By the late '90s I was starting to learn about connection, and the long-term problems that can arise from a forceful lead. That was when I changed my dancing,

Thanks for the feedback! But can you also tell me where you learnt about connection etc. It interesting to find out the source of change amongst 'early adopters' as it were. I thought you had actually done some ballroom dancing long before (but correct me if that is wrong) so what was it that you learnt late '90s that was new or different to affect your modern jive?

Its interesting to trace how far back WCS has been influencing modernjive, for example.

[Amir]

Originally Posted by Astro

I don't know how I know, but I always thought Tango was "invented" by African Americans while they were living in slave quarters. Don't think they danced it in Africa, but it grew out of a need to dance to express their disapora. Tango is pretty sombre and passionate, reflecting the misery of slavery.

Everyone on the forum says it's an Argentinian folk dance.

Amir, you've been to Buenos Aries, the city which claims Tango as originating there, what is the truth of the matter? Did the slave masters, watch and steal the dance?
For me, I danced with smooth leads and enyoyed them best, so I had to adapt to them.

Just having been there doesn't actually help answer the question, since it all happened around the 1880s if not earlier. The contribution of African-Americans to Tango is debated, but it definitely started in Buenos Aires. I couldn't tell you the color of the first dancers for sure. There was a dance done by black people called Tango, so the name at least is probably 'stolen' but that doesn't mean the dance is the same. There is a very old source which says that some of the lower classes invented 'Milonga' (normally considered the ancestor to Tango) as a kind of parody of the blacks dancing Candombe. (Which has an interesting parallel, since the opposite story exists about Lindy Hop being a parody of white ballroom dancing in North America.) But anyway, it wasn't Slave Masters who were first to do it, as it was a long time before the dance was accepted amongst higher classes. Arriving at the true source of something that happened over a 100 years ago is going to be difficult as I'm still on what happened in Modern Jive just 10 years ago!

It would be great to hear more people saying why they try to dance smooth, assuming they do. As in, your own personal history – who or what did you see that made you think this smooth business is important to your dancing.

So far I can split the reasons into:

1. Good dancers were doing it, so I had to if I wanted to dance with them
2. My teacher told me to and I took their word for it
3. I saw WCS / Tango and liked the look
4. I learnt that smooth dancing is safer.

[NZ Monkey]

Originally Posted by Amir

It would be great to hear more people saying why they try to dance smooth, assuming they do. As in, your own personal history – who or what did you see that made you think this smooth business is important to your dancing.

So far I can split the reasons into:

1. Good dancers were doing it, so I had to if I wanted to dance with them
2. My teacher told me to and I took their word for it
3. I saw WCS / Tango and liked the look
4. I learnt that smooth dancing is safer.

I suppose I moved toward smooth dancing in a few stages.

Initially, Raechel was my Ceroc teacher and told me much the same thing as she did to you. She helped by teaching me the standard footwork pattern of closing the feet used in NZ which made a big difference immediately. My timing and lead both improved significantly literally overnight. Incidentally, I no longer use that footwork... but it has provided the basis that my MJ was built on.

After moving to the UK, I took up WCS at Twickenham partially because I’d heard good things about it and had seen a video of Robert and Deborah (I think!) from Rebel Yell a number of years previously, and partially because I was frustrated with what I’d seen of Ceroc in London at that time. This was my first exposure to dancers of really serious ability and the impression they left after just the first night was enough to convince me this was were I belonged. Smooth movement is of course a characteristic of WCS and it was only natural that this would seep into my MJ even more than it had in the past.

Some time later (and thanks largely to the forum for this) I had met quite a number of the more experienced dancers in London, and learned that most of these people valued smoothness in their dancing as well. This served to reinforce everything I had learned previously. It also probably meant that I got introduced to more people than I would have otherwise, so the whole cycle became somewhat self-fulfilling.

After moving back to NZ that element of my dancing has become something of a signature. My style has evolved away from a more typically NZ due to my influences in the UK.

N.B. This is just a personal evolution. I understand what you are looking for is more of an historical evolution, but as I have only been dancing a total of two years with a little change I'm not in a position to speak in those terms .

[JCB]

Originally Posted by Amir

It would be great to hear more people saying why they try to dance smooth, assuming they do. As in, your own personal history –

We have only been dancing for a year, and we are slow learners, so not much history. Each of us has quite a way to go in developing our own styles!
We have been engaged in the battle against the bounce for a few months now.
The best beloved has great difficulty hearing the beat. As beginners I "fed" him the beat (at his request) through a hand bounce... . Um, yeah, we soon discovered this was not such a great idea, and quickly stopped. But now, in his effort to keep the beat, he has developed a slight "whole-body-bounce." It doesn't muddy the lead, like the hand-bounce, and if it helps him with the rhythm, then I have no problem with it!
As we neared our first dance anniversary, and Jon's confidence grew, he resented having to sit out the slower songs, and we explored a couple of different dance styles. But pogo-ing, albeit highly subdued, doesn't really have the right look or feel for "Blues" or "Jango"
I really don't have an objection to a bouncy style, if it doesn't interfere with a clear lead, if it is not too extreme, and if it doesn't clash violently with the style of the music. I know a leader who likes to add a lot of vertical jigging to his style. As a follower, I try to pick a very fast tune, because the inability of my 50-year-old knees to keep up with the required bounce factor seems less discordant at speed, than at a more moderate BPM rate
I don't like the hand bounce, if it makes the lead too difficult to follow. With some hand-bouncing leaders I can filter out the vertical component without much difficulty, but not most.
For myself, if the music is really bouncy, I tend to bounce with it (but my following hand doesn't join in: it is busy "listening" ...and I never reach the amplitude of the bouncy leader I spoke about, because that would be painful after a single track! ) For example, a track like "Reach for a Star" plays, and the knees naturally seem to take on an extra springiness. (the fact that I don't much care for that track is beside the point!) But other songs get me moving laterally, and I develop a sway or a wiggle, completely unconsciously (wouldn't have known I did it, if it hadn't been commented on )
The battle is recent: i.e. since we have started to learn to dance to slower tracks. Then Jon's minimalist bounce, which I hadn't even noticed before, stood out as incongruous with the mood of the music.

note to Amir: looks like deja vu all over again

[Gadget]

My views on the evolution of MJ here, but in particur reference to "Smooth" dancing, I don't think I've ever been particularly "rough". At least not that I can remember {dosn't say much }

I always want to look on the dance floor - and to me, the coolest physical movements have always been slick/smooth. From early B&W silent slapstick where the timeing was spot on, to jackie chan movies where movements just seemed to 'fall into place', to circus accrobats moving bonelessly. {Hmmm.... these influneces might explain some of my dancing } So I have always tried to be smooth.

Smooth dance influences? I suppose going way back in time, BTCBill influenced me - what made people 'rave' about his dancing? what was he doing that I was not? UPC moves, excelent connection and smooth execution. After that I think David & Lilly opened my eyes/mind to connection and how the lead is communicated; I made my lead as smooth as possible. Then I think it was the introduction of 'blues' style of dancing influenced heavily by Marc & Rachel that smoothed my movements even further. Since then, I've actually tried to add some crisper edges and give more definition/contrast rather than simply oozing into a puddl