Who to dance with? :confused:

[NZ Monkey]

There has been some debate recently on the merits of dancing with anybody if you want to improve your dancing. The other thread has done a good job of pointing out just how unwise it is to act like a jerk (and I’d rather avoid any of that in here), but it has highlighted something I think is worth a thread on it’s own.

Conventional wisdom seems to me that the best way to improve is to dance with everyone and (at least for leaders) assume that any mistakes are yours. In some cases I’ve heard the philosophy that followers improve more by dancing with more experienced leaders, while leaders improve more by dancing with less experienced followers.

I don’t deny that there is value in dancing with anybody and everybody if you’re looking to improve your dancing personally. What I do question is where the balance lies and whether there is a difference for leaders and followers in this regards. Please note that I’m deliberately ignoring the social element of the dance entirely here, which is the primary reason most of us are involved in it in the first place. I’d like to avoid a string of posts saying something to the effect of “I enjoy dancing with anybody. The most important thing is just having a good time” if possible – I know that’s true of most of us, but I don’t see that it’s relevant to the particular question I’m trying to raise.

As most of you know, I’m a leader. I personally feel that my dancing has improved far more from dancing with ladies much better than I am than it ever has from dancing with those who are not as competent.

The argument that is usually used against only dancing with those much better than you is that they can compensate for your mistakes more. While I agree this is true, it’s also true that when you do make a mistake it’s much easier to identify it correctly as your own. I’ve also found that it’s usually easier to correct the mistake if your partner is reliably doing the same thing each time you mess something up and that feedback is generally much more precise (and accurate) from those with much more experience.

When dancing with beginners, it’s easy to get into the habit of overcompensating and developing bad habits. While we all compensate to some degree to match our partner (and this is how it always should be!) I’d rather that I learn what works “best” with the “best” dancers and use that as a platform to build on than have to unlearn something counter productive years later.

Additionally, dancing with someone more experienced than yourself provides opportunities to fine tune your own lead or follow. A chance to learn the differences between subtle leads or techniques that would simply be lost in the noise to someone who isn’t sensitive enough to feel the differences yet. I’ve found that this precision tends to learned through osmosis as much as any other method as well, and that this carries through when dancing with everyone – not just the experienced ones.

I’m not trying to claim that we should only look to dance with those who are better than us when we’re trying to improve. Ignoring the fact that it’s downright anti-social at times there is definitely value in leading beginners. I disagree with the common view that any move should be leadable on a beginner (which to the best of my knowledge puts me in direct conflict with some of the most respected forum members such as Franck and DavidB) however.

I see a balance in dancing with those both better and worse than yourself, but the fulcrum is quite a bit closer to the more experienced side than the lesser one. I also don’t see that this is any different for the leaders or the followers. What are other readers views on the subject?

[gebandemuishond]

This may be quite a complicated reply. I agree that when dancing with an experienced follower, mistakes are more readily identifiable as your own. If not even the best follower could cope, then it's pretty certain to be down to the leader. It's a really complex game this lead/follow business, for example, sometimes followers ask me what they were supposed to do there, and my reply (mostly just in my head) is "whatever you think would be best". This is generally due to ambiguity in my lead, which could be interpreted as giving the follower more options and more influence in the dance, or it could be interpreted as an unclear lead to do a specific thing. What I'd like to get better at is judging whether the follower is going to recognise it as an option moment rather than an unclear lead, and providing it or not accordingly.

Thus, for me, improving my dancing has two elements: improving the clarity of my leading, and improving my judgment of how much input the follower wants at any particular time. The latter will probably get better through dancing with experienced followers (who tend to like more of an active role in the dance). The former will probably get better through dancing with inexperienced followers (with whom it is necessary to lead very clearly in order to have a successful dance).

Dan

[Martin]

Since you asked...

For social I dance with beginners, and I think it is a good skill to adapt your lead to the followers ability. It certainly shows who is a "really good" lead if he can adapt to all levels.

For a lead to get better, you need to dance with great follows...

Better, being, loving the dance, taking moves past the "just moves" stage and doing those fabby moves, taking into account the music, that you could not put on a beginner.

If I wanted to show off, or just have a lot of fun... I would go for the most advanced follow.

I still love dancing with beginners - but that will never make me push myself, in my own dance ability.

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Martin

Since you asked...

For social I dance with beginners, and I think it is a good skill to adapt your lead to the followers ability...............

that IMHO is a great dancer talking

Just wish it was preached more in classes

[martingold]

Originally Posted by Martin

Since you asked...

For social I dance with beginners, and I think it is a good skill to adapt your lead to the followers ability. It certainly shows who is a "really good" lead if he can adapt to all levels.

and dont forget we were all beginners once, the beginners want help improving and you never know the beginner you dance with now could turn out to be the next fantastic dancer

Originally Posted by Martin

For a lead to get better, you need to dance with great follows...

could not have put this better myself
As most people on here know i am a taxi, I tell all the beginners i meet to go find the best dancer possible (lead or follow by the way) and ask them to dance that's the best way to improve so why shouldn't that also be the case for intermediate / advanced dancers I know it helped me when we went to storm and danced with some awesome follows

[Kel_Warminster]

Originally Posted by martingold

As most people on here know i am a taxi, I tell all the beginners i meet to go find the best dancer possible (lead or follow by the way) and ask them to dance that's the best way to improve so why shouldn't that also be the case for intermediate / advanced dancers I know it helped me when we went to storm and danced with some awesome follows

I enjoyed dancing with you at Storm Martin - and I am nowhere near an "awesome follow" ...I dance for dances' sake - I enjoy the interaction between myself and any partner I dance with. Beginner, intermediate, advanced!

That said, I don't like dancing with people who use their followers as an "accessory" to make themselves look good. Fortunately that has rarely happened in my first year of dancing, and now I've got the blues bug, its just getting better

[johnnyman]

The important thing is to always accept a dance from anyone who asks and to appreciate that we are all learning all the time.

best
johnnyman

[CJ]

FWIW... In improving my own dancing:~

In terms of frame, musicality, expressiveness then I would look to the top notch girls.

In terms of lead & follow, frame, smoothness I would look to dance with beginners.

In terms of over coming frustrations, ego and back leading I would look to dance with intermediates!!!

Ahem... moving on...

[straycat]

In a nutshell...
Dance with everyone - to be a good all-round leader, you need this,
Never ever miss an opportunity to dance with someone 'better' than you - as you say, to push your leading skills onto new levels, this will be invaluable.
Experiment constantly.
'Listen' constantly to your partner.
Always be open to improving the way you lead things, even in moves that you think you can lead perfectly whilst blindfold with both arms tied behind your back. Especially in moves that you think you can lead perfectly whilst blindfold with both arms tied behind your back. Complacency is a connection-killer.

No matter who you're dancing with, you can find something to learn from them. It's just a matter of how you approach it.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by NZ Monkey

There has been some debate recently on the merits of dancing with anybody if you want to improve your dancing. The other thread has done a good job of pointing out just how unwise it is to act like a jerk (and I’d rather avoid any of that in here), but it has highlighted something I think is worth a thread on it’s own.

Conventional wisdom seems to me that the best way to improve is to dance with everyone and (at least for leaders) assume that any mistakes are yours.

To some extent, that's a "lies to beginners" piece of advice. (i.e. no, it's not really true, but it's a good approximation until you're a reasonably experienced dancer). I would say:

On a technical level, if you (as the leader) aren't sure whose fault it is, it's probably yours. Two reasons: other things being equal, I think both parties (and particularly leaders) tend to overestimate the chance of it being the other person's fault, so if you're not sure, odds are you're the guilty party. And secondly, because of the different learning curves for leads and follows, I think leaders (below a certain level, at any rate) are more likely to be making mistakes than followers.

On a social level, if you lead a move your partner can't follow, it's your fault for leading something unsuitable. (This aspect is probably expressly excluded by your preface, but it is one of the main reasons for the "it's always the leader's fault" meme).

As most of you know, I’m a leader. I personally feel that my dancing has improved far more from dancing with ladies much better than I am than it ever has from dancing with those who are not as competent.

It's all about a mixture. Given the choice of dancing only with beginners or only with advanced follows, you're definitely going to do better with the advanced dancers. But if you only dance with advanced dancers, your ability to lead beginners is going to suffer. I went from dancing at a venue where almost all the follows were advanced (most were teachers or advanced+ competitors) to a venue where most of the follows had been dancing less than a year. I had to relearn a lot about how to dance with beginners.

The argument that is usually used against only dancing with those much better than you is that they can compensate for your mistakes more. While I agree this is true, it’s also true that when you do make a mistake it’s much easier to identify it correctly as your own.

Except if you dance with a follow much better than you, most of the time you won't even realise when you make a mistake (although I suspect this is less true for a good lead). In itself, that's not that big an issue. But if what you "learn" from this is "I can lead that move with Lily, so if it goes wrong with anyone else it can't be my lead", then that does present a problem.

I see a balance in dancing with those both better and worse than yourself, but the fulcrum is quite a bit closer to the more experienced side than the lesser one. I also don’t see that this is any different for the leaders or the followers. What are other readers views on the subject?

I agree with this, but I think there's a strong law of diminishing returns. You don't "need" a follow who's much better than you to get the main benefits, and I do actually think you may even learn more from such a follow than one of the superstars.

Being practical, even if we ignore the "don't be a jerk" issue, there's an obvious problem with advocating dancing with the top follows if you want to improve: there simply aren't enough such follows to go around.

[bigdjiver]

When I was learning to play chess I found that I could learn very little from playing great players. I would work out that they might make move x,y or z, and they would make one of those. I could have made that move in their place. However their position kept getting better and mine kept getting worse, and I was non the wiser as to how they made each choice.

Dancing with superb followers had a similar non-learning effect. Suddenly I was a much better leader doing nothing differently from normal. Back with a normal standard of partner and the dances reverted to my normal standard, and I could see that the mistakes were mine. I think that I learn most about leading skills from dancing with beginners and new intermediates, and most about dancing by playing with "dancers", whatever their level. By "dancer" I mean those partners that respond to the music and are prepared to play with it, whatever their "level" may be.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

I agree with this, but I think there's a strong law of diminishing returns. You don't "need" a follow who's much better than you to get the main benefits, and I do actually think you may even learn more from such a follow than one of the superstars..

Mmm. Very true - although there are some exceptions. I've been lucky enough to spend a great deal of time dancing with a lady who is a) an extremely good follower, and b) who elected not to compensate for my mistakes. In any way whatsoever.

It's been a real eye opener. It's been incredibly humbling. Some of the time, it's not been any fun at all. Moves which I thought I'd been leading perfectly turned out to have been lead very badly. Many basics which I'd happily been doing since day one turned out to have developed very bad habits indeed.

As a result though, both my lead, and (probably more importantly) my attitude towards leading have changed considerably, and I think I can attribute a great deal of the recent improvement in my dance has been down to this. It's a worthwhile process, but you have to leave your ego at the door to get the best out of it.

[Steven666]

So who here actually tells their dance partner in a dance when they have gone wrong?

And if we don't should we be doing it ourselves or just wait and let a teacher to sort it out?

I, myself, never have the courage to speak up.

As for who to dance with, dance with, both, whoever asks you to dance and whoever you ask to dance. Quite simple really.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by Steven666

So who here actually tells their dance partner in a dance when they have gone wrong?

Much discussed, in many threads - I go with the general consensus that the social floor is not the place for feedback (except if asked, or in special circumstances, eg risk of injury)

[dep]

Originally Posted by Steven666

So who here actually tells their dance partner in a dance when they have gone wrong?

And if we don't should we be doing it ourselves or just wait and let a teacher to sort it out?

I, myself, never have the courage to speak up.

As for who to dance with, dance with, both, whoever asks you to dance and whoever you ask to dance. Quite simple really.

I do,
"Sorry, got that a bit wrong, I'll try it again if we have time."
Usually it works better or even perfect next time.
Very occasionally the Follower asks "show me that again".
This can happen in both class freestyle and Party nights.

I agree with CJ.
Improve the precision of your leading with lower ability Followers.
Improve the musicality with accomplished Followers.
In other words dance with everyone.
Every level of Follower is capable of giving the Leader a great dance.

[ducasi]

I think initially, all a leader needs to help them improve is a competent, but not necessarily "good", follower – i.e., someone who can follow, but isn't yet an expert. That way correct leading should be rewarded, and incorrect leading will not be compensated for.

Once the leader can lead this type of follower well, a more expert follower can bring extra challenges and help them become musical dancers, rather than just leaders of moves.

Dancing with learner followers is a tricky one. It helps competent leaders learn to dance with *anybody*, which is a useful skill in itself, though I think it's maybe more important to learn to dance with people who can dance first. That said, availability is probably an overriding factor.

(I could go into a learning to drive analogy, but I think I've talked about this before and it should be obvious, right?)

Overall though, in a social dance, the social rule about dancing with "everyone" is more important.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by NZ Monkey

The argument that is usually used against only dancing with those much better than you is that they can compensate for your mistakes more. While I agree this is true, it’s also true that when you do make a mistake it’s much easier to identify it correctly as your own.

My personal experience has been that its been the feedback from more experinced dancers that helped me to progress. In particular Kate and Lilly made many excellent 'observations' without deflating my ego too far. My foray into comeptition dancing also helped. When we first started dancing together, my partner Zambo was a far better dancer with me. After many months of freestyles and occaisional studio time, she managed to drag me up to her level.

[Lory]

Originally Posted by NZ Monkey

I see a balance in dancing with those both better and worse than yourself, but the fulcrum is quite a bit closer to the more experienced side than the lesser one.

I agree with you on a certain level... take last night for example, an Argentine Tango came on and I had a go with a guy I'd never danced with before, it was all going very well, until he threw in a move i'd never done before.... I didn't follow although, I did realised a split second 'after', what he'd actually 'wanted' me to do. '
If he'd been dancing with someone more experienced than myself, she'd have definitely got it, as it wasn't his lead that was bad, it was 'my' lack of experience. (BTW, he was perfectly lovely about it )


And, WCS is an educated dance, the follower has to know her part and until she fully understands the principles of the dance, I don't think it would matter how good and clear the lead was. So I believe it would be unfair for a lead to judge his leading skills on a beginner in WCS.

MJ is far more forgiving than AT or WCS but I think the principles still apply. A follow who's less experienced, wont necassarily understand a 'suble' lead, which may mean having to dance differently to the way you want to practice.

I also don’t see that this is any different for the leaders or the followers. What are other readers views on the subject?

For me, as a follow, I'm challanged in completely 'different' ways, when dancing with a beginner or an experienced dancer!