Competition Snobbery

[Lory]

Do you think people who have never entered a competition or who don't even aspire to be in one are thought any less of, or even looked down on in the dance community?

And, what do you think of people entering, who haven't got a hope in hells chance of winning?
Do you think they are GREAT for entering in the spirit of things and give great entertainment value, even if its just to have a snigger at? Or, are they wasting the judges and the serious contenders precious time?

Do you think they have an over inflated opinion of themselves and they enter actually thinking they stand a chance?

As someone who's never entered one and doesn't aspire to be in one but I DO admire people who do!

I'd be interested to hear

[Pammy]

I used to feel that those who entered competitions looked down on those who didn't. I don't think that is so much the case anymore, but was unfortunately a result of the venue I was (at that stage) dancing at, where those entering considered themselves to be better and so everyone else assumed they were. A lot of people out there don't realise that anyone can have a go; that's the great thing about it.

If someone hasn't got a hope in hell of winning, then I say, Good Luck to them. That's great that they are standing up there and giving it their all, which is all that counts. I hope the judges don't think they're wasting their time; afterall, we must all start somewhere and whoever we are, there will always be people better than us and people who are worse than us.

I would say that they enter because they think they do stand a chance (at least I hope that's the case). Or perhaps they just enjoy the social side of competing. It is nice to travel around the country and end up somewhere you've never been before to do something you enjoy and to get there and see all the familiar faces. When we go away to compete it's like a mini holiday and we have a great time; that's the best bit of it all for me, just bonding with those people around you and having a jolly good time (just don't eat prawn sandwiches and if you have fish and chips in Brighton, check for a deep fried cockroach at the bottom of your chip cone before eating )

Pamster
x

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Lory
As someone who's never entered one and doesn't aspire to be in one

Careful Lory, even the most committed non-competers can find themselves waking up one morning thinking, "Hmmm, I wonder..."

Never say never...



Chris

[Lory]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Careful Lory, even the most committed non-competers can find themselves waking up one morning thinking, "Hmmm, I wonder..."

Never say never...



Chris

NEVER!

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Lory
Do you think people who have never entered a competition or who don't even aspire to be in one are thought any less of, or even looked down on in the dance community?

The thought never occured to me that people who enter competitions could be considered more skilled than ones that don't.

In fact I wouldn't have a clue who are competition enterers and who aren't at most nights. I couldn't imagine anyone caring.

[Gus]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
In fact I wouldn't have a clue who are competition enterers and who aren't at most nights. I couldn't image anyone caring.

Probably comes back to teh debate ... Why do people do MJ.

There are those who like the social thing, those that like to just have a laugh .. and those who either want to rank themselves against others and/or love being the centre of attention and in the spotlight ...... and all the shades in between

I think there is an element of dancers who look down on others ... but thats not neccsarily due then being in competition .. its just human nature ... some people are naturally up their own a**, regardless of how good they really are.

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Lory
Do you think people who have never entered a competition or who don't even aspire to be in one are thought any less of, or even looked down on in the dance community?
.................Do you think they have an over inflated opinion of themselves and they enter actually thinking they stand a chance?

I am SURE (IMO) that there are a lot of dancers in the Advance that really should be in the Intermediate, because of an inflated opinion of themselves.

AND there are a few past winners. who now feel they are above dancing with the likes of the average dancer now ! (unless they are slim and lovely of course)

(I have my own problems as time is getting nearer, I am feeling very nervous as I have seen some really great 'older' dancers, so I am training my mind to think of it as a bit of competitive fun).

[Bill]

Originally posted by Pammy

I would say that they enter because they think they do stand a chance (at least I hope that's the case). Or perhaps they just enjoy the social side of competing.
Pamster
x

I think most must enter for enjoyment because realistically only a handful of people must really believe they can win. The Intermediate comps are often more open because the 'best' tend to move up and in the past it was highly likely that J & C would win but with Lily, Amir, James et al now entering both the Advanced and the Open in London are much more competitive but the winners , for the time being, are likely to come from a handful of dancers.

But everyone has to make a start somewhere and some of the best dancers in Scotland don't compete and have no interest in competing. As someone who has no chance of ever winning a freestyle event and who doesn't relaly enjoy the experience I have to contemplate why on earth I do it

[Jon L]

Lory - I think most of us who are regular social dancers do not fall in to the looking down on others category - I don't that's for sure

I entered with someone the ceroc champs last year at Intermediate for the first time to see how far I would get, I was suprised and pleased to make it into the second round at the first attempt. She doesn't want to do it this year so I may not enter it this time as I need to find a new partner.

Finding a competition partner is a bit different to social dancing as you have to be happy with that persons rhythm etc. an out of synch couple will stick out a mile.

I have entered two team cabarets with my friends. That although hardwork was a lot of fun and it was good to see other members who were less experienced dance wise than I am progress and be encouraged. We were rewarded with a very suprise win at last years Britroc champs in Hove, (we did feel sorry for Nottingham though as we have felt disappointment ourselves back in May). Sue McGregor said to me last weekend, she got the impression I am a team dancer man (I like D-T as well) and not an individualist - she's probably right.

Sadly though there are some individual couples who have been called Hotshots in previous threads who perceive themselves "the elite" who will not mix and ask others to dance, and will be loathed to dance with anyone else outside their circle.

This is not true however of the real champions for example last Saturday I danced with Janine Myers (open ceroc champion) she very happy to dance with me, which I really appreciated (thanks ) Nina, and Lily are exactly the same.

It is nice to compete once in a while but I am not into touring the country competing for titles, I'd much rather dance socially.

My advice to anyone is give it a go - winning is not the objective, and to anyone who does not have a regular partner try the Dance with a stranger competitions for fun and see how far you get.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Jon L
Finding a competition partner is a bit different to social dancing as you have to be happy with that persons rhythm etc.

And if you're planning to take it at all seriously, and do stuff like practice together and criticize each other, then you've also got to get on really well (obvious really?)

Like Andy has said, you should only be competing while it's fun, OK winning is bound to be fun, but few of us can expect that. I have all sorts of concerns about doing competitions and how it affects my social dancing (which is far more important to me), but have had wonderful comments from old partners at how my social dancing has changed for the better over the last year, while I've been working at the improvements needed for competing.

I still have the "problem" that in the weeks leading up to a competition, I dance with far fewer partners than usual, but I'm dead lucky in having two competition partners who are both fantastic dancers, and it's going to take a long long time before I'd be dancing with them and not having fun.

So do competitors "look down" on other dancers? Well I suppose most of us look up to various dancers, including those that win competitions, so does the reverse apply? Most of the winners that I know are especially modest about their abilities (Rachel especially!!!) so by "looking down" do we mean that they consider people are not worthy of dancing with them? If so, we are back to the "hotshots" argument, and hopefully that label applies only to a very small minority.
If we mean that we consider ourselves better dances than others, surely all of us consider we are better than some, (and worse than most ). In my book that is not the same as "looking down" on someone.

Greg

[Chris]

I don't think competition dancers look down on non-competition dancers, but I can see how the latter might think they do.

Competition dancing brings out a different side of your dancing, a 'performance' style side, which is great fun for its own sake, even if no-one's watching! Like any hobby (and competition style dancing isn't for everyone), as you get into it you may relate to others of the same tendency in a slightly different way to others - it's something you share, after all. For some people it means caring about whether you get a movement 'right' (whatever that is) as opposed to just dancing with people for the social interaction alone.

The problems with jive competitions have been enumerated by other people in other threads. I can see a lot more point in learning to dance 'competition style' than I can in actually entering jive competitions. And having your mates appreciate you or cheer you on is maybe more fun than winning if you like that sort of thing. But it's good to have been there done that in one sense at least - it stops those (who look down on people, if there are such people) from looking down on you and slagging off your dancing once you've won something, and it gives you the confidence (justified or not) that you're dancing can't be all that sh*te if you've got an award on the mantlepiece.

As to the jolly luvvies that constantly say "we only do it for the fun - not like those people who beat me at the last competition or will probably beat me at the next one" (my italics added) - I think they're kidding themselves - everyone does it for fun. Dance professionals generally aren't bothered much with modern jive.

People go through phases with competitions for different reasons - it's not that big a deal and not a pronouncement from on high if people win or don't win - people go through phases with different dance styles as well, or going to weekends or workshops - do whatever seems right for you. Some jivers might look 'down' on you if you don't do salsa; some jivers definitely look down on jivers that don't do lindy - it's just from their point of view at that time - there's nothing particularly objective in it as far as I can tell.

[Gary]

One of the guys in Sydney (Adam) doesn't compete (except in teams), but the girls queue up to dance with him and sigh "now that's dancing" afterwards. I've got a second place trophy in a competition. Just you guess which dancer I'd rather be

Not sure why I enter comps. I'd be very very very surprised if I ever placed again, and I'm more keen now on interpretation than on flash moves, which handicaps me further for competition (unless I get really really good at it, but I'm not holding my breath). I like the idea of getting my dancing smoother and sharper, and a looming competition is good motivation for that. I like watching the comp, and competing is usually the only way to get a decent dance on the day of the comp (competitors get space to dance).

Looking down on someone is a pretty weak way of feeling better about yourself, and being a better competition dancer than someone is a pretty weak reason for looking down on them. I'm envious of the fabulous competition dancers, though, I'd love to look that sharp.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Gary
One of the guys in Sydney (Adam) doesn't compete (except in teams), but the girls queue up to dance with him and sigh "now that's dancing" afterwards. I've got a second place trophy in a competition. Just you guess which dancer I'd rather be . . .

That Adam is divine , that's why. I'm surprised he doesn't compete - where's his Aussie spirit?
And Gary - you're not half bad yourself

LilyB

[Martin]

Great thread Lory,

I really do not think comp dancing puts you above anyone on the "social dance scene". It is a different type of dancing and can be fun. Not a huge reflection on being a cool social dancer.

A class I went to last week was at a fairly new venue and had lots of beginners. In the consolidation class (for beginners when the intermedite class is on) they had far too many ladies, so all the "competition" guys went out to help in the consolidation class, and then made a point of dancing with them all after the class.


The main "snobery" I come across is those Lindy or Salsa dancers who say "oh, you don't do Lindy/Salsa" as if you have grown a second head.

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by Martin

Great thread Lory,

I really do not think comp dancing puts you above anyone on the "social dance scene". It is a different type of dancing and can be fun. Not a huge reflection on being a cool social dancer.

A class I went to last week was at a fairly new venue and had lots of beginners. In the consolidation class (for beginners when the intermedite class is on) they had far too many ladies, so all the "competition" guys went out to help in the consolidation class, and then made a point of dancing with them all after the class.


The main "snobery" I come across is those Lindy or Salsa dancers who say "oh, you don't do Lindy/Salsa" as if you have grown a second head.

Just experienced a fair bit of 'Lindy' snobbery at the 1940's Newbury Ball (Ginger jive) the weekend. There weren't many jivers, mostly Lindy/Swing dancers, but lots of them just gave my friends and me this look of "don't you dare ask me to dance - I am a Lindy 'expert' " when all we wanted to do was try to have a go for one track. A couple of men did succomb to our wiles, but as we started to dance - all made the comment "oh your not lindy are you!" and beat a hasty retreat as soon as the track ended. Only one partner bit the bullet and asked me for a second track, which gave me the opportunity to put right what I messed up on the first track and hopefully we both enjoyed it. We paid £18 a ticket and apart from dances with the two girls I went along with I only had 3 different partners all night - when I normally hardly sit down all night!

FANTASTIC CABARET AT THE BALL! Thanks to Andy & Rena, Dan & Christie and the Rock Bottoms Team who were all brilliant as usual.

There is definately snobbery about 'levels' of dancing as many girls, including myself have experienced the look of "you are asking ME to dance" when asking someone (who usually competes at a high standard) to dance or someone that 'thinks' he's better than you.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny

There is definately snobbery about 'levels' of dancing as many girls, including myself have experienced the look of "you are asking ME to dance" when asking someone (who usually competes at a high standard) to dance or someone that 'thinks' he's better than you.

This has been raised several times over the last couple of years and unfortunately it is true but thankfully doesn't happen that often in mj. There was a rather lengthy discussion about 'London snobbery' and 'elite' groups but in most clubs the majority of dancers are happy to dance with anyone

I know that less experienced dancers can be intimidated by 'better' dancers especially those who do win competitions. I still have real problems asking women who dance ( and often win) Advanced or Open comps so it's all relative.

And not all dancers who compete - or who do well in comps are the 'best' ( as has been stated pretty frequently). In Edinburgh women love dancing with Roy (when he's back), smooth Gilbert, Brian, William and several others and although Gilbert has been placed with Lyndsey in the lindy comp in Blackpool none of these men have been placed in a major mj comp (as far as I'm aware). And yet all of them are wonderful dancers and I know they are rarely off the floor and happy to dance with anyone regardless of their ability or experience.

If anyone out there hasn't danced with these guys then get up to Edinburgh and enjoy the experience.

[Sparkles]

I used to experience a lot of this on the ballroom scene (one of the reasons I've stopped doing that for a while).
I also found it quite prevelant in the West Country MJ scene - not necessarily competition dancers, but definitely elite groups that wouldn't dance with anyone else...
Luckily on the MJ scene in London there are so many people that you're only likely to know who the competition dancers are if you go to comps. If you don't everyone is as friendly as everyone else when they are social dancing and therefore good fun to dance with!

S. x

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

Luckily on the MJ scene in London there are so many people that you're only likely to know who the competition dancers are if you go to comps. If you don't everyone is as friendly as everyone else when they are social dancing and therefore good fun to dance with!

S. x

Also, most of the competition dancers in MJ aren't snobs about their dancing The main area of snobbery I've found has been from attractive women not finding me attractive

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny

Just experienced a fair bit of 'Lindy' snobbery at the 1940's Newbury Ball (Ginger jive) the weekend. There weren't many jivers, mostly Lindy/Swing dancers...........

Really - I went to Newbury on Saturday and I am a MJ dancer who can do a little bit of Lindy, however the girl I went with IS a Lindy dancer. We both found that the majority of the dancers were BEGINNER Lindy dancers (not even as experienced as me ) There was only a handful of experienced Lindy dancers and they were dancing with everyone (eg: Andy Fleming / Paul Cox - both teachers)

It is quite difficult if you know both styles to switch off swing steps when dancing MJ to a swing track as I did on my first dance which was with Sherif.
(great dance tho - but there again he is a master )

CONCLUSION:
IMO the snobbery is the "compentent" MJ dancers TRYING to do Lindy and thinking they are a lot better than they really are (up there own whatsits)

bit like me when I gave up smoking telling everyone "Filthy habit, I don't smoke"