Aerials - are they fair ??

[Paul F]

Ive just been browsing through my dance video collection of recent champs and it got me thinking about aerials.

All the way through all major event videos you can see the same aerials being trotted out again and again. This would be fine but it got me thinking.

Im sure people would agree that to be able to be thrown around
1. the lady must be of a relatively slight stature and
2. the guy must have a certain amount of strength.

The fact that people will be 'judged' in whatever way through doing these , is it fair to discriminate against people who cant do them due to natural (or otherwise) reasons??

At least with drops the lady can counter some of the weight with her legs.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Paul F
Ive just been browsing through my dance video collection of recent champs and it got me thinking about aerials.

All the way through all major event videos you can see the same aerials being trotted out again and again. This would be fine but it got me thinking.

Im sure people would agree that to be able to be thrown around
1. the lady must be of a relatively slight stature and
2. the guy must have a certain amount of strength.

The fact that people will be 'judged' in whatever way through doing these , is it fair to discriminate against people who cant do them due to natural (or otherwise) reasons??

At least with drops the lady can counter some of the weight with her legs.

Firstly, don't agree with points 1 or 2. Look at Andy and Rena. They are both about the same size. And Andy isn't exactly a muscle-bound hunk.

At Bognor, just for a laugh, I did one of the moves that David and Lily taught, using David for a partner.

I think that trust and technique/timing are far more important than just brute strength.

Also, as other people have said, in most competitions, you will be more likely to lose marks by using aerials. The only competition that I think you'd gain from doing them, is in the Jive Masters, where a lot of the audience/judges are of a lower standard (than the competitors), and hence would be more impressed by them. At Blackpool, with judges like Nigel and Nina, Simon, Marilene, James, Bridget etc., I think that you'd stand to lose more by doing them (if done badly (including the in's and exits)), than you could ever gain than by including them, even if you do them well.

Steve

[Paul F]

Yeah, i see what you mean.

The last vid I watched was the ceroc champs this year which is the last memory of it. I noticed quite a few aerials there.

I just cant help but think some people will be naturally excluded from doing them which is a bit unfair but as you say Steve, this might be to their benefit!

Hmmmm, will give me something to look out for at blackpool.

[Will]

Originally posted by Paul F
Ive just been browsing through my dance video collection of recent champs and it got me thinking about aerials.

All the way through all major event videos you can see the same aerials being trotted out again and again. This would be fine but it got me thinking.

Im sure people would agree that to be able to be thrown around
1. the lady must be of a relatively slight stature and
2. the guy must have a certain amount of strength.

The fact that people will be 'judged' in whatever way through doing these , is it fair to discriminate against people who cant do them due to natural (or otherwise) reasons??

At least with drops the lady can counter some of the weight with her legs.

I think this is a very interesting topic.

On one hand, ariels gaining marks does give an advantage to couples consisting of strong guys and slight girls. On the other hand, if you take the arguement of banning them as they discriminate against those who aren't built for them to its logical conclusion, you'd have to ban dance competitions all together as they discrimate against people who have disabilites that prevent them can't dance at all I suppose. I guess it's a question of "Where do you draw the line?" (Which I for one don't know).

Perhaps you should have a rule that any couples entering a freestyle catagory that allows ariels must be within 3 stones of each others weight. The only drawback to that is that we'd all get fed up of having to watch the Tramp and DavidB dance together in competition after competition! (Ahhh, 2 birds with 1 stone )

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Paul F
Ive just been browsing through my dance video collection of recent champs and it got me thinking about aerials.

Im sure people would agree that to be able to be thrown around
1. the lady must be of a relatively slight stature and
2. the guy must have a certain amount of strength.

As Steve says, this isn't really true. Most people can do almost any airstep you are likely to want to do in a freestyle competition. The only move in the Open that would be beyond most people physically was the overhead (barbell) lift that Ben and Deb did.

Conversely, if you look at Nigel and Nina, although they're not airstep specialists, they make their trademark lifts look effortless. And Nigel is certainly not a huge guy. But they do practice. And practice. And practice...

On the other hand, allowing aerials seems in practice to have made people feel they are required in order to compete at the top level. The rules may say otherwise, but at least as far as audience reaction goes, aerials seem to have a bigger "wow" factor than any amount of snazzy footwork or musical interpretation. There are good dancers who hate aerials who feel they have to learn them just to be competitive - which does seem unfair.

Dave

[Lounge Lizard]

Please have an aerials catagory in comps and ban the big moves from open and advanced catagories.
It seem strange that to win a MJ/Ceroc comp above intermediate level you almost always have to use aerials.
Pease let the competition relfect the social dance floor and become something that all dancers can aspire to, as opposed to using moves that would not be allowed in most venues on a dance night - not everyone can, likes or wants to perform aerials (or bid drops and seducers).

peter

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Please have an aerials catagory in comps and ban the big moves from open and advanced catagories.

AND DEFINITELY SENIOR CATAGORIES !

Hear hear

It is not fair on big girls like me -

Whether they are executed well or not you always get the audience gasping or clapping and it clouds the rest of the dancing. Whereas without these tricks the 'non-aerial' dancers don't get so noticed

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Please have an aerials catagory in comps and ban the big moves from open and advanced catagories.

A while ago I said there should be a "masters" category which only allowed beginner moves - I was half joking at the time, but have come to think this would be a fantastic idea. On the other hand:

It seem strange that to win a MJ/Ceroc comp above intermediate level you almost always have to use aerials.
Pease let the competition relfect the social dance floor and become something that all dancers can aspire to, as opposed to using moves that would not be allowed in most venues on a dance night.

Even before Ceroc opened the "airstep floodgate", there had been a lot of "drop inflation" - people were really pushing the boundaries, with some moves really being full lifts except that 1 toe just scrapes the ground. I would rather see well controlled lifts that don't use much space than drops that need half the dance floor, and are actually more dangerous because of the need to keep a toe on the ground. Where you draw the line is always difficult, and at least the one toe on the ground line is unambiguous. But I could defend allowing small lifts, and I could also defend not allowing any drops or airsteps at all.

Dave

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Paul F
Im sure people would agree that to be able to be thrown around
1. the lady must be of a relatively slight stature and
2. the guy must have a certain amount of strength.

Absolutely true, but only because both points are meaningless . relatively slight and a certain amount covers any lead who is strong or skilled enough or simply bigger than their partner - i think theres more to it than that .

Originally posted by Paul F

The fact that people will be 'judged' in whatever way through doing these , is it fair to discriminate against people who cant do them due to natural (or otherwise) reasons??

Of course it's fair, discriminate is a funny way to put it - you can choose which moves you do during a competition. Lets say you cant do a pretzel but others can, it doesnt mean you are a victim of discrimination because the judges mark them for it .

Even if theres no specific requirement for aerials in the competition, they are still valid moves and should be judged like any other move - anyway, as others have pointed out you could do more harm than good to your chances by badly executing an aerial. The fact that aerials are not specifically disallowed in a specific catagory means that they judges should view them as just another move, albeit one that may gain higher marks because of the relative difficulty.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
At Bognor, just for a laugh, I did one of the moves that David and Lily taught, using David for a partner.

You couldn't manage a sugar push in the class then??

Chris

[DavidB]

If I thought that aerials were the only thing that counted in a competition, I might start entering again. But other than the Jive Masters, or an actual aerials competition, I don't think they count for much. I know they don't when I judge.

On the other hand I know that several couples feel pressurised into doing aerials, just because they are allowed. I don't think this is right.

Personally I would allow aerials in the most advanced division, but also have at least one track per round where no aerials or drops were allowed. Then you get to see if a couple can dance, as well as doing flashy tricks.

I'd ban aerials from the other categories, but also introduce the same idea with respect to drops - ie see if the men can keep a lady vertical for a whole song.

Interestingly enough, a similar discussion has been happening in the US following the US Open last year. However it was someone saying that aerials weren't rewarded enough compared to the dancing...

David

[Chris]

Originally posted by DavidB
I know that several couples feel pressurised into doing aerials, just because they are allowed. I don't think this is right.

But so much more fun when they're not allowed! (My fave was a tiny and very pretty little jump by the wonderful Tania R - seemingly got her blown out of the advanced freestyle at Blackpool two or three years ago.)

[Will]

I've heard talk that we are about to see the Seniors Catagory opened up to airsteps too. Something to do with a new sponsorship deal with Stenna Chair Lifts.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Will
I've heard talk that we are about to see the Seniors Catagory opened up to airsteps too. Something to do with a new sponsorship deal with Stenna Chair Lifts.

Well I think that's sick - just cos they've been doing them longer why should they get all the sponsorships?

[Chris]

Originally posted by Paul F
The fact that people will be 'judged' in whatever way through doing these , is it fair to discriminate against people who cant do them due to natural (or otherwise) reasons??

It's an MJ competition (as opposed to say The Olympics?) so you milk it!

I noticed Nicky and Robert milked the Jive Masters semi-finals with a wide range of high-precision aerials and noticed seemingly afterwards that it had been a fabulous track for musicality that could have been interpreted more - but they corrected this in the finals and added more musical interpretation ('he he - if this is what the Brits think is cool he he') and so won and it would be hard to say they didn't deserve it.

Taken to its limits we could say is it fair to discriminate against people who can't actually dance very well lol.

I've yet to throw Tramp in the air but I'd be up for having a shot (this is on the 'I have more fab theory than common sense' model)

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chris
I've yet to throw Tramp in the air but I'd be up for having a shot (this is on the 'I have more fab theory than common sense' model)

Do I have any say in this then??

Steve

[Chris]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Do I have any say in this then??
Steve

I would always ask nicely before doing aerials with a new partner

[Gary]

Originally posted by David Franklin

On the other hand, allowing aerials seems in practice to have made people feel they are required in order to compete at the top level. The rules may say otherwise, but at least as far as audience reaction goes, aerials seem to have a bigger "wow" factor than any amount of snazzy footwork or musical interpretation. There are good dancers who hate aerials who feel they have to learn them just to be competitive - which does seem unfair.

Dave

Audience reaction is (I hope) different from how the judges score. I hope and believe that most judges will mark you down for a big move if it's sloppy or inappropriate. I'd also hope that a big move if it's sharp and really hits the right spot in the music should win the couple some extra marks.

If I have to dance inappropriately to win, then I'll dance the way I think the music should be danced and happily lose. (Which is a lot easier to say when I know I've got not much chance of winning no matter what I try )

[Paul F]

Originally posted by Gary
.....I'd also hope that a big move if it's sharp and really hits the right spot in the music should win the couple some extra marks......

This is why i started the thread you see.

IMHO I think most people would agree with you BUT

I dont think everyone would be able to do aerials. People say look at (whoever) as they dont look muscle bound but, after learning about physiology, its not a case of how someone looks that determines their strength.

As for the reason i started this thread (i knew there must have been one )

The point I was (badly ) trying to get across was that, say, you had a couple dancing and they were fantastic. Very smooth, very skilled dancers but the lady may be of a considerable size.

I know its about technique but, and im probably wrong, surely in this situation it would be impossible for the couple to execute aerials.

I know a bit about conditioning and realise the body can accept stress/weight in varying degrees but there is a limit.

It just worries me a bit that, with the ever larger population, that some people will be excluded.
As a result, if this couple were dancing in the finals against another who were doing aerials I wondered if it would be fair.

I guess you can say that about people who just cant dance or those who have a limp etc. but it doesnt make it right.

(btw, that was just a general comment. not aimed at you gary)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Chris
I've yet to throw Tramp in the air but I'd be up for having a shot

What, like clay pigeon shooting?

Chris