Fun Poll: Limbs of Jelly - Ladies, what do you do?

[Lou]

OK, Lasses. Imagine you're in an intermediates class, and you've ended up trying to dance the routine with a man with limbs of jelly & no lead to speak of.

What do you do?

[filthycute]

Smile politely, try to interpret as much as you can, then guess the rest. Normally get fed up of this option quite quickly and start leading


filthycute x x

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by filthycute
Smile politely, try to interpret as much as you can, then guess the rest. Normally get fed up of this option quite quickly and start leading


filthycute x x

I'm with you filthy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not that this ever happens in Dundee

[Emma]

Yeah. Try desperately to find a lead somewhere in there..and then if there really is nothing probably lead it myself.

It's really hard to admit to that!! But if it's the intermediate routine so I know what's supposed to be happening..maybe it helps to lead a jelly-armed man. Dunno. If it wasn't a taught routine I'd dance about and pray desperately for the music to be over.

[Tiggerbabe]

I've just been re-reading this and to be honest if it was happening in the class then I would say something to the guy.

The point being, that there is no point in him thinking he's leading when the girls are merely copying what the teacher or demo is doing. If he did the same in freestyle then the girls wouldn't know what he wanted them to do and therefore wouldn't do it

When I'm dancing as the man in the class you do realise that a lot of the girls will be doing the moves by themselves - slight deja-vu, didn't this come up before ( ).eg they will spin before you lead them into it:reallymad .

If it were freestyle then I wouldn't say anything - but as I would not have complied with his wishes then I doubt if either of us would enjoy the dance at all and then he'd probably think " Bloomin' Dundee Wimen aye wantin' tae lead "

Either that or think I was totally useless as he never has any trouble in the class...........................:sorry

[John S]

How common is this jelly-arm phenomenon?

Not having danced with a lot of men (recently), I don't know the answer, but I had always thought there was perhaps more of a tendency for men to want to lead a bit too forcefully (the standard Ceroc teaching seems to concentrate more on dealing with over-dominance, with the "don't stir her when you turn her" mantra.)

Guess I'll have to work a bit more on the biceps before I ask Sheena for a dance tomorrow.

[Lou]

Originally posted by John S
How common is this jelly-arm phenomenon?

Not that common by the time you get to intermediates, it has to be said - it's just I met an example on Monday (or it might just be me!)

I just danced around him, as I knew where we needed to be, but I just got to thinking afterwards if that was the right thing to do.

On the opposite side of the coin - I can only think of a couple of men with maybe slightly too forceful leads. I've only had one arm nearly wrenched out once (but again - that could be my fault too!)

[Rachel]

Originally posted by John S
How common is this jelly-arm phenomenon?
I had always thought there was perhaps more of a tendency for men to want to lead a bit too forcefully

Yes, I think far more men are too forceful and it leaves you with very little control over your dancing- i.e. if they push you too hard into a spin, they'll just throw you off-balance, etc etc. You can excuse most beginners for this because they're probably just tense. As for men who 'force' you into drops/seducers, however - arrrGGHH!!!

But the jelly-limbed man is also quite common. I voted for the 'lead yourself' option, but I think I probably do the wrong thing there - if you just stood there immobile, they'd have to learn to lead better before long. Wouldn't they???

Unless it's someone I'm friendly with, or unless they specifically ask for advice, I don't feel it's my place to tell someone how they should be dancing. Hopefully, the on-duty taxi dancers feel they have the authority to give a little gentle guidance here.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Rachel
Unless it's someone I'm friendly with, or unless they specifically ask for advice, I don't feel it's my place to tell someone how they should be dancing. Hopefully, the on-duty taxi dancers feel they have the authority to give a little gentle guidance here.

Rachel - you've reminded me of something else I noticed. During the beginners LeRoc class, I happened to look over to the couple next to me. Noticing that the lady hadn't stepped back, her more experienced partner actually kicked her foot to make her move backwards! Sorry - if that had been me, I would have kicked him somewhere more painful in return! Constructive criticism I welcome, but we have to draw the line somewhere!

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Lou
her more experienced partner actually kicked her foot to make her move backwards! Sorry - if that had been me, I would have kicked him somewhere more painful in return!

You're joking, aren't you??? If not, then your response of kicking him back (hard and painfully) would have been exactly the right one! And I don't care who says otherwise - kicking your partner into position is just NOT acceptable.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Rachel

Unless it's someone I'm friendly with, or unless they specifically ask for advice, I don't feel it's my place to tell someone how they should be dancing. Hopefully, the on-duty taxi dancers feel they have the authority to give a little gentle guidance here.

Yes i know what you mean Rachel. Although you aren't exactly helping the cause it is an awkward situation. Especially when it comes to intermediates. Beginners take advice relatively well. (well if i was getting advice from a more experienced dancer i'd be more than happy to comply) Intermediates on the other hand could go either way. On one hand if it's someone you know/doesn't have much confidence/ someone you don't know , but know they appreciate friendly advice to aid them in their dancing it's normally fine to go ahead and say "Your leads a wee bit loose, there's no tension, if your try doing it like this, blah, blah, blah" End Result:- 1 Intermediate dancer leaves happy, with a little more knowledge because thats the reason he comes to classes...to learn and improve. From teachers, taxi's and friendly people

On the other hand..... I'm one of those people that when doing the intermediate class, just can't help myself jumping in to "help" when guys don't get the moves correct. ie:raising wrong arm, turning wrong way, being mental, etc, Personally if it's really obvious to me what they are doing wrong, i like to try and make them see the light Of course this doesn't always go down too well. This happens when you try and tell the"I'm an intermediate, i've been dancing for X amount of years, i don't even need to do these classes because i know everything already,(but if i was really truthful and actually took the time to look at my dancing, i'm actually quite crap) so how dare you tell me i'm doing it wrong" people. End result:- 1 intermediate is seriously hacked off at you for trying to "dictate" to him when he's clearly superior to you and only comes to the classes to dance with beginners, because they are the only people who think he's a good dancer.

I've been in different venues and been doing the intermediate class and had guys (who have clearly only been to about 2 intermediate classes) give me friendly advice. I may be more experienced but it certainly doesn't make me superior. As a wise man said to me earlier " It takes an outsider to see the obvious" But because they give you advice doesn't always mean they have more experience.....they just have a different way of seeing things.

anyways my advice.......Take any advice you can get no matter who it's from. It could very well be one of the most helpful things you'll be told

oo-er! didn't realise this was so long!!

filthycute x x

[Rachel]

Originally posted by filthycute
... the"I'm an intermediate, i've been dancing for X amount of years, i don't even need to do these classes because i know everything already,(but if i was really truthful and actually took the time to look at my dancing, i'm actually quite crap) so how dare you tell me i'm doing it wrong" people.

God, that's all just soooo familiar!!

anyways my advice.......Take any advice you can get no matter who it's from. It could very well be one of the most helpful things you'll be told

And very wise advice it is, too! I agree, you can always learn something from everyone.

The funny thing is, a while after starting Ceroc, I started not going to any classes at all at my regular venues, just arriving for the freestyle at the end (cos I was too lazy or disorganised or working too late to get there earlier). But, since my boyfriend started teaching, I began doing all the classes again. And it's amazing how much you can still pick up from the beginners' class. And quite scary how many bad habits you realise you've picked up, and how many moves you're not actually doing properly and have to learn to correct. Though maybe that's just me!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Rachel

And it's amazing how much you can still pick up from the beginners' class. And quite scary how many bad habits you realise you've picked up, and how many moves you're not actually doing properly and have to learn to correct. Though maybe that's just me!

Nah, not just you. We used to run crew training days ... sounded really impressive ... but the first two or three were basicaly beginners workshops where I tried to get their basics right. Its far more important for a taxi dancer to be able to do the basic moves correctly than put a tripple spin in. Just to be controversial, I bet if all the crew (AND the better intermediates) did a beginners workshop I bet my bottom dollar that Franck, Scott etc. would have a field day in correcting bad habits.

Back to the subject of lead ... many people in Ceroc do give advice, partyly because we tend to attract friendly souls ... but not all the advice, though well intentioned, is good advice. However, the real offenders are the psuedo experts who are past lessons ... sorry but I haven't seen ANYONE on the Northern circuit (and that includes my own patch) who is past lessons. You can always learn ... and its a constant source of purile amusement to see some of the more experienced dancers doing a lesson and making a complete hash of it ... and occaisionaly I'm one of those poor souls myself ... never have been much good at this lesson lark ... far easier to do it from stage.

Whilst on the subject .... has anyone had the ego bashing experinec of going to a new club and having some new intermediate trying to tell you how to dance because they're under the impression you haven't been dancing that long? In those situations its a bit difficult to tell them you're a teacher and actually they're doing the move completely wrong.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Gus
has anyone had the ego bashing experinec of going to a new club and having some new intermediate trying to tell you how to dance because they're under the impression you haven't been dancing that long? In those situations its a bit difficult to tell them you're a teacher and actually they're doing the move completely wrong.

Oh I sooo wish I'd seen that - it's really made me giggle! But, yes, I've certainly been to new venues and had people think I was new and try to tell me what to do. The best thing about that is when you can just smile sweetly and thank them for the advice, but then - hopefully - get a dance with someone really good later and know that your 'helpful friend' is wondering how the hell you're managing to do it! That's funny...

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Gus
Whilst on the subject .... has anyone had the ego bashing experinec of going to a new club and having some new intermediate trying to tell you how to dance because they're under the impression you haven't been dancing that long? In those situations its a bit difficult to tell them you're a teacher and actually they're doing the move completely wrong.

Originally posted by filthycute
I've been in different venues and been doing the intermediate class and had guys (who have clearly only been to about 2 intermediate classes) give me friendly advice

don't mind in the slighest as long as,
A) they aren't being cheeky, uppity, dictating...chances are i'm being a nutter and they have every right to be thinking i can't dance worth a toss
B)Doing the move correctly.
Think we should be asking ourselves what we're doing thats so mental, that they think we're beginners

I did this myself once at a Line dance event. We were doing a lindy workshop and the guy i was dancing with said to me"I don't have a clue what i'm doing". I didn't have a clue either so i felt a little more comfortable. We had a giggle through the workshop and had a bit of banter, slagging each other. THEN!!! come luchtime i find out he's one of the best WCS on the line dance circuit!!!! I knew who he was from hearsay....i just didn't know that this was HIM!! I was wishing for the ground to swallow me!! :sorry: I hadn't noticed wether he was good or bad to be honest because i had never done any couples dancing before. So now i just shut my trap a leave it be

filthycute x x

[DavidB]

This is a problem everywhere (in the US they call it 'noodle arms') and is not restricted just to the men. But a man can still just about lead a lady with jelly arms, whereas a lady has a real problem if the man doesn't lead!

A lot of ladies will backlead in a class. They seem to be able to pick up the move quicker than the men and quite rightly expect to do what they have just been taught. As a man I sometimes find it helps - particularly if I join a class late and have no idea what the first move taught is. The other common mistake is to turn the lady the wrong way, and I appreciate the lady doing it right. However when I finally understand the move, it gets annoying when the lady still backleads.

The better ladies seem to know when to stop backleading and let the man try. The only tip I can give is to check where the man is looking. If he looks at the stage all the way through the move, he is probably still confused, and might appreciate all the help he can get. If he looks at you, then you can assume he thinks he has got it. If he still gets it wrong, hope the teacher says 'rotate'.

If he is a regular in the class, and never seems to learn, then give him the same 'jelly arms' back. If that has no effect, you could try asking the teacher or one of the taxi dancers to have a dance with him. Personally I wouldn't try to actively teach anywhere unless I was asked.

Fortunately very few ladies backlead when they dance freestyle. I don't think they get chance - a lot of men look like they are doing tae-kwan-do, not dancing jive. I wouldn't like to be hanging on to the end of their arms!

Originally posted by Gus
However, the real offenders are the psuedo experts who are past lessons

No-one is past lessons. I've seen Marcus and Karen Hilton (9-times World Ballroom Dance Champions) having lessons. The interesting thing is what they get lessons on - it is almost always basics. There is a saying in Ballroom - Beginners want to learn intermediate steps, intermediates want to learn advanced steps, but advanced dancers just want to learn basics.

.... has anyone had the ego bashing experinec of going to a new club and having some new intermediate trying to tell you how to dance because they're under the impression you haven't been dancing that long?

I did have someone suggest that I should try aerials.
But I've done it myself as well - I once commented that a new lady was pretty good for a beginner, and then found out she was a professional dancer appearing in the West End production of Grease!
Keeping quiet is a lot safer...


David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
There is a saying in Ballroom - Beginners want to learn intermediate steps, intermediates want to learn advanced steps, but advanced dancers just want to learn basics.

David

Another pearl of wisdom that should be nailed over the stage at Ceroc venues and recited manta like before all lessons. Never figured out what happens to dancers, especially men, who after 4 to 5 months suddently go on a mission to search out every complex move, aerials and drops and throw them into their routines .. usualy oblivious to the beat (and their partner). Most fo the good advanced workshops I've done have been based round 1st move and baskets ..... complex moves are nice but if you're going to improve wouldn't it be a good idea to get the basics right first?

Having said that, it seems to be one of those standard line package for all Ceroc venues ... you know, ALL clubs have at least one of the following;

- ex-RocknRoll speed demon
- rubber arms woman
- man with infinite moves but negative sense of rhythm
- wonderfull dancer thats alwys surrounded by his/her chosen dancers
- guy who knows only three moves

etc. etc.

[Dancing Veela]

Am I on the only person who sees at the top level that Gus has been updating this thread - but when I come into the thread I can't see any updates since 4th Sept?????

If so - what am I doing wrong???????

[John S]

Originally posted by Dancing Veela
Am I on the only person who sees at the top level that Gus has been updating this thread - but when I come into the thread I can't see any updates since 4th Sept?????

If so - what am I doing wrong???????

I think it's maybe that someone has been filling in answers to the poll - the system then recognises this as a new posting and brings the thread back up to the top of the listings.

If when you have entered the forum you click on the "View New Posts" line, I don't think you'll get that problem.

Anything else, madam?

[Dancing Veela]

Originally posted by John S
Anything else, madam?

Thanks John! Nope .....well actually a good point.....how do I do quotes from different people all in one reply?