Competition Dance Style

**Gus** · 9th-March-2004, 01:41 PM

{ODA Mode On}

OK .... since when did Modern Jive become Modern Latin Jive?? Looking back over the dominant competition style these days it seems clear that there is a clear move towards the Latin Ballroom style at competitions ... especially for Ladies. Elegant steps, lots of spare hand extension, lunges etc.... look at the performances of Kate, Tramp’s partner etc. On the other hand, the more clubby style seems to get nowhere. Simon and partner (all in red) didn’t make the final despite some extremely innovative dancing. Extreme case is the awesome Dan Baines who I don’t believe has ever bettered 3rd. The (most welcome) exception was of course FC and JB ... but maybe that was due to the fact that they just were so far ahead of the competition there could be no other decision!

{ODA Mode Off}

OK ... know the above statement is extreme ... but it covers an interesting point. Maybe due to the background of the judges ... there does seem to be a significant advantage in dancing Latin style over a more urban modern style. I'm NOT saying that this is necessarily bad ... just observing. Is this a fair comment ... or am I in a vast minority of 1 as usual. Oracle ... any views?

*Lounge Lizard* · 9th-March-2004, 01:52 PM

I agree with Gus that Simon/Kim were fantastic and musical interpretation/breaks etc. perfect IMHO.

There does seem a pattern to the judging at certain events, and what does well at Blackpool may come nowhere at (say) ceroc.

It must depend on the Judging and perhaps someone like Dan Bains as a Judge could balance the picture.

I would imagine that the increase in popularity of Salsa has a strong influence on our dance style, I know a LOT of my stuff is Salsa derived or influenced and assume others are the same.

Two years ago Lindy styling and swing music seemed the fashion, now it is latin, after Mark & Jackie's great routine perhaps Disco will return in two years time.........[Please dont let it happen]

TRPP

TheTramp · 9th-March-2004, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I agree with Gus that Simon/Kim were fantastic

I thought that Simon was even better when he danced with his partner 'Keely' though!!

Trampy

Mary · 9th-March-2004, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTramp
I thought that Simon was even better when he danced with his partner 'Keely' though!!

Trampy

Sorry Trampy, Simon's partners' name is Nicole, and yes, she's a lovely dancer - I've watched them do some great stuff together.

M

TheTramp · 9th-March-2004, 02:21 PM

I think that it's true that certain styles seem to go down better than others.

However, I think that's maybe just because of the people who are dancing them??

If you look at the judges for Blackpool, many of them have their roots/interests more in the lindy/swing side of Modern Jive than in the more Latin side - Nigel, Nina, James, Bridget, Simon. I'd say that only one (Roy) would have a more latin style when dancing.

From this, since (IMHO), Lindy is closer to the club-type dancing that Peter and Gus are interested in than Latin, I'm not sure that I'd agree that it's the judges areas were particularly favoured.

I honestly can't remember the tracks that they played in the final of the advanced (possibly "In these shoes" was one?), but if I were a judge, I'd mark down a couple that only danced in one way, which wasn't necessarily in sync to the music being played - hence, if the music had a more latin feel, even if someone was doing great 'club' style dancing, then I'd mark them down. Of course, this applies both ways. Maybe if the music had a more club based feel, then other people might have done better if they were dancing in that style?

Trampy

TheTramp · 9th-March-2004, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mary
Sorry Trampy, Simon's partners' name is Nicole, and yes, she's a lovely dancer - I've watched them do some great stuff together.

Ummm. Sorry. I thought that they were talking about Simon from Bristol (who, with his partner, were both all in red), not Simon Rich. Apologies if I have the Simon's mixed up.

Isn't Simon Rich's 'actual' partner Nicole anyhow, and not his dance partner?

Trampy

Mary · 9th-March-2004, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Sorry. I thought that they were talking about Simon from Bristol (who, with his partner, were both all in red), not Simon Rich. Apologies if I have the Simon's mixed up.

Isn't Simon Rich's 'actual' partner Nicole anyhow, and not his dance partner?

Trampy

Oh 'eck! You've got me confused now. I think you are right - Simon R & Kim were not in red (I don't think). So maybe LL got the right couple but wrong names (or right names, but wrong people) or something anyway.

Maybe I should stop before this hole gets any bigger.

M

**DavidB** · 9th-March-2004, 02:30 PM

I can't really comment on this year's competition too much - too busy dancing or panicking. So this is based more on what I've seen in the past.

The style should match the music. ie an 'urban' style for 'urban' music, a 'latin' style for 'latin' music, a 'swing' style for 'swing' music, etc. Since no-one seems to do this, it becomes a question of which style is more adaptable.

In the past I've always felt that the 'urban' style of modern jive has relied too much on individuality, and not on dancing with a partner. Competitive latin dancing has evolved as a way of presenting partner dancing to the judges and audience. 'Urban' dancing has evolved more as a way of presenting solo dancing to an audience. This tends to give the latin style several advantages across the different categories.

David

ChrisA · 9th-March-2004, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Sorry. I thought that they were talking about Simon from Bristol (who, with his partner, were both all in red), not Simon Rich. Apologies if I have the Simon's mixed up.

Isn't Simon Rich's 'actual' partner Nicole anyhow, and not his dance partner?

Heavens, are there two Simons from Bristol?
There was Simon and ElaineB from Bristol who got to the Intermediate final

There was Simon Rich (who's going out with Nicole, who is a lovely dancer - I had a couple with her during the post-comp freestyle and they were quite luscious) and Kim, who danced together in Advanced, can't remember how far they got...

Dunno about any others, I obviously need to pay more attention...

Chris

*Sheepman* · 9th-March-2004, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gus
{ODA Mode On} Extreme case is the awesome Dan Baines who I don’t believe has ever bettered 3rd.

I've only seen Dan compete once, and he won (was it 1998?)

I agree with DavidB, the style should match the music, if we'd had some Latin music on Saturday, (I hope) I would have swapped styles to Latin. Certainly I didn't think I was doing that last Saturday, as most of what I was doing came from West Coast swing/Nigel (often the same thing). I would have loved a Latin style track, as it often seems that's what gets Mary & I going.

But some of us are too ancient to really carry off the Dan Baines "street" style, much as we might want to. One professional dancer told me not to try any hip hop unless I'm young enough to wear the baseball cap backwards.

Hmmm, I still do that - but only to keep the sun off my neck!

Greg

*Bill* · 9th-March-2004, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTramp
but if I were a judge, I'd mark down a couple that only danced in one way, which wasn't necessarily in sync to the music being played
Trampy

In which case I think every dancer would be marked down

Can't think of many, if any, dancers/couples who have different 'styles' or dance in different ways to various tracks. Even the great Vikotr tends to dance in the same salsa/jive style regardless of the music ( but he does it so beautifully).

Most dancers have a particular style and simply throw in a few moves to go with the music. While Davidb seems to hardly move - but leads superbly, Trampy uses lots of dips and drops using his technique and strength, Clayton seems to do lots of big open moves with some drops and Dan B does the lindy/street thing brilliantly but it doesn't always fit particular tracks.

Gus is probably more of 'clubby' dancer so if judges prefer a latin style then he, and others who have a similar style, may have little chance of progressing. Perhaps the one person I can think of who I would say can adapt his style to different tracks would be Nigel as I've seen him do lindy, boogie woogie, blues, jive etc so can slow down, speed up and interpret the music when he wants.

No criticism of any of the above named but I'm sure the 'best' dancers would still be categorised by the 'punters' as clubby, latin, slasa, lindy or whatever and what this offers the rest of us is the opportunity to select a style and try it out.

part of me would love to try Dan's style but I'm too old and don't have the physique ( or the tatoos)

*Dance Demon* · 9th-March-2004, 05:49 PM

I think that there are dancers that can adapt their style to suit the music. Certainly, there are dancers out there that have dabbled in various dance styles. ie Lindy, Salsa WCS, ballroom. Thats probably why we see so many different styles of "modern Jiver" coz they have borrowed moves and style from other dances.

*Amir* · 9th-March-2004, 07:10 PM

Hillel came and saw me perform a contemporary dance piece at the Rambert School, and said it looks just like the way I dance when I do modern jive! No two dance forms could be more different!

Style I think is an expression of your personality, and I don't think it ever changes in extreme ways.

Watch Michael Jackson in 'Black and White' video doing russian, american indian and indian dancing, and he does them all well, but with his own unique style.

I think many dancers do change the way they dance to different music, but they are still doing modern jive and still the same person, so sometimes the difference is subtle.

There are many different types and styles of flamenco, for example, but unless you know a bit about them, they will probably all look about the same.

by the way, I showed a dvd of Mathew and Nicole Cutler (Latin Ballroom Champions) to a friend who had never seen ballroom before to get his opinion. 'It looks just like club dancing' is what he said. So I think it depends on the club you go to...

David B once said something about style as the elements of dancing that are not technique. So in some ways style can be surface. I agree with David that latin styles have evolved in a partner dance form, as opposed to hip-hop, and lend themselves better to modern jive in most cases.

as a last note, I did a great argentinean tango class with Simon Selman, and at the end he expained that you don't have to dance tango to tango music. You can do it to swing music. He confirmed my own personal views on the matter, which basically means that just because a swing tune comes on doesn't mean you suddenly have to look like a lindy dancer. Just because that is what has always been done doesn't mean that is what we have to do. I think tango looks great danced to swing music. I enjoy flamenco danced to chart and salsa to hip hop. At our T-Dance we had people jive to bach and handel. there are no rules and what works is subjective.

I agree that dancing should look different to different kinds of music, but in what way is a very personal choice.

**Minnie M** · 10th-March-2004, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheepman
I've only seen Dan compete once, and he won (was it 1998?)

Hmmm.... wasn't that the Le Jive Comp when he and his partner were punky

if so I believe even though they were allowed to finish their routine/dance they were disqualified as their dancing style didn't fit the criterea

bigdjiver · 10th-March-2004, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnie M
Hmmm.... wasn't that the Le Jive Comp when he and his partner were punky if so I believe even though they were allowed to finish their routine/dance they were disqualified as their dancing style didn't fit the criterea

If Dan is who I think he is, and my memory is correct, (big IF's) they won Le Jive, and were disqualified, and acclaimed at the same time, the next year at the Ceroc Championships. Too much "robotics" and separation.

*Sheepman* · 10th-March-2004, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnie M
Hmmm.... wasn't that the Le Jive Comp when he and his partner were punky if so I believe even though they were allowed to finish their routine/dance they were disqualified

There was plenty of controversy over the results, but not this one. Dan & Lisa were certainly punky, but it must have been another comp where they got disqualified.

How anoraky is this:-

LeJive 1998 Intermediate
1st Dan Baines & Lisa Davies 72pts
2nd Derek Harnden & Helena Fletcher 66pts
3rd Phillip Kane & Gaye Hateley 54.5 pts

A couple of other notable names from that comp.

DWAS 4th place - Rob Coward

Showcase 1st Place David & Lily Barker

Greg

**Lory** · 10th-March-2004, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheepman
How anoraky is this:-

Greg

VERY!

By the way Greg, I meant to say, thankyou for taking time out for me last night! Really appreciated it!

And I WILL give it a go soon! promise!

*Andy McGregor* · 10th-March-2004, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mary
Oh 'eck! You've got me confused now. I think you are right - Simon R & Kim were not in red (I don't think). So maybe LL got the right couple but wrong names (or right names, but wrong people) or something anyway.

Maybe I should stop before this hole gets any bigger.

M

Just to further muddy the waters.

Keely Chambers was dancing with a guy called Simon who's surname I don't know. They were both wearing red.

**Gus** · 10th-March-2004, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheepman
Dan & Lisa were certainly punky, but it must have been another comp where they got disqualified.

If I remember correctly it was the Ceroc Champs (1999). They competed in the Spotlight and totally blew away everyone else (including N&N IMHO) ... BUT ... because the Ceroc judges didn’t know how to score it they disqualified it (?????). They competed in Advanced at Blackpool but weren't place (???) again despite a storming performance. Where I'm coming from is that if you incorporate Latin Ballroom into Jive its still Modern Jive .. but if Hip Hop/Contemporary dance included then its not Modern Jive.

OK ... I know I'm banging on an old drum but I do find it somewhat risible for Modern Jive to be described as 'Modern' when most of the moves being used are at least 40+ years old

I agree with DaveB that HipHop type moves are more 'solo' based but there is room for crossover ... the display by Simon and Keeley demonstrated that quite clearly. HOWEVER ... even though I knew I wouldn’t be troubling the judges on Saturday, most of my preparation was to knock out my natural club style and focus on more Latin type moves and try to include as many drops as possible to be able not to crash and burn. Bit of a shame that the more 'clubby' dancers feel at a disadvantage in competitions (personal view only)
.....

9th-March-2004, 01:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
Gus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 4,925 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 958	Competition Dance Style {ODA Mode On} OK .... since when did Modern Jive become Modern Latin Jive?? Looking back over the dominant competition style these days it seems clear that there is a clear move towards the Latin Ballroom style at competitions ... especially for Ladies. Elegant steps, lots of spare hand extension, lunges etc.... look at the performances of Kate, Tramp’s partner etc. On the other hand, the more clubby style seems to get nowhere. Simon and partner (all in red) didn’t make the final despite some extremely innovative dancing. Extreme case is the awesome Dan Baines who I don’t believe has ever bettered 3rd. The (most welcome) exception was of course FC and JB ... but maybe that was due to the fact that they just were so far ahead of the competition there could be no other decision! {ODA Mode Off} OK ... know the above statement is extreme ... but it covers an interesting point. Maybe due to the background of the judges ... there does seem to be a significant advantage in dancing Latin style over a more urban modern style. I'm NOT saying that this is necessarily bad ... just observing. Is this a fair comment ... or am I in a vast minority of 1 as usual. Oracle ... any views? __________________ Perfectly Flawed

9th-March-2004, 02:21 PM	#5 (permalink)
TheTramp The Forum Legend Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 10,469 Rep Power: 6 Reputation Total: 1692	I think that it's true that certain styles seem to go down better than others. However, I think that's maybe just because of the people who are dancing them?? If you look at the judges for Blackpool, many of them have their roots/interests more in the lindy/swing side of Modern Jive than in the more Latin side - Nigel, Nina, James, Bridget, Simon. I'd say that only one (Roy) would have a more latin style when dancing. From this, since (IMHO), Lindy is closer to the club-type dancing that Peter and Gus are interested in than Latin, I'm not sure that I'd agree that it's the judges areas were particularly favoured. I honestly can't remember the tracks that they played in the final of the advanced (possibly "In these shoes" was one?), but if I were a judge, I'd mark down a couple that only danced in one way, which wasn't necessarily in sync to the music being played - hence, if the music had a more latin feel, even if someone was doing great 'club' style dancing, then I'd mark them down. Of course, this applies both ways. Maybe if the music had a more club based feel, then other people might have done better if they were dancing in that style? Trampy __________________ "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". (Attributed to Voltaire). Caveat: But reserve the right to tell you if what you say is a load of crap!

9th-March-2004, 01:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
Lounge Lizard Commercial Operator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,434 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 182	I agree with Gus that Simon/Kim were fantastic and musical interpretation/breaks etc. perfect IMHO. There does seem a pattern to the judging at certain events, and what does well at Blackpool may come nowhere at (say) ceroc. It must depend on the Judging and perhaps someone like Dan Bains as a Judge could balance the picture. I would imagine that the increase in popularity of Salsa has a strong influence on our dance style, I know a LOT of my stuff is Salsa derived or influenced and assume others are the same. Two years ago Lindy styling and swing music seemed the fashion, now it is latin, after Mark & Jackie's great routine perhaps Disco will return in two years time.........[Please dont let it happen] TRPP

9th-March-2004, 02:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
DavidB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,129 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1417	I can't really comment on this year's competition too much - too busy dancing or panicking. So this is based more on what I've seen in the past. The style should match the music. ie an 'urban' style for 'urban' music, a 'latin' style for 'latin' music, a 'swing' style for 'swing' music, etc. Since no-one seems to do this, it becomes a question of which style is more adaptable. In the past I've always felt that the 'urban' style of modern jive has relied too much on individuality, and not on dancing with a partner. Competitive latin dancing has evolved as a way of presenting partner dancing to the judges and audience. 'Urban' dancing has evolved more as a way of presenting solo dancing to an audience. This tends to give the latin style several advantages across the different categories. David

9th-March-2004, 05:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
Dance Demon Commercial Operator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,523 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 783	I think that there are dancers that can adapt their style to suit the music. Certainly, there are dancers out there that have dabbled in various dance styles. ie Lindy, Salsa WCS, ballroom. Thats probably why we see so many different styles of "modern Jiver" coz they have borrowed moves and style from other dances.

9th-March-2004, 07:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
Amir Commercial Operator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: London Posts: 297 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 499	Hillel came and saw me perform a contemporary dance piece at the Rambert School, and said it looks just like the way I dance when I do modern jive! No two dance forms could be more different! Style I think is an expression of your personality, and I don't think it ever changes in extreme ways. Watch Michael Jackson in 'Black and White' video doing russian, american indian and indian dancing, and he does them all well, but with his own unique style. I think many dancers do change the way they dance to different music, but they are still doing modern jive and still the same person, so sometimes the difference is subtle. There are many different types and styles of flamenco, for example, but unless you know a bit about them, they will probably all look about the same. by the way, I showed a dvd of Mathew and Nicole Cutler (Latin Ballroom Champions) to a friend who had never seen ballroom before to get his opinion. 'It looks just like club dancing' is what he said. So I think it depends on the club you go to... David B once said something about style as the elements of dancing that are not technique. So in some ways style can be surface. I agree with David that latin styles have evolved in a partner dance form, as opposed to hip-hop, and lend themselves better to modern jive in most cases. as a last note, I did a great argentinean tango class with Simon Selman, and at the end he expained that you don't have to dance tango to tango music. You can do it to swing music. He confirmed my own personal views on the matter, which basically means that just because a swing tune comes on doesn't mean you suddenly have to look like a lindy dancer. Just because that is what has always been done doesn't mean that is what we have to do. I think tango looks great danced to swing music. I enjoy flamenco danced to chart and salsa to hip hop. At our T-Dance we had people jive to bach and handel. there are no rules and what works is subjective. I agree that dancing should look different to different kinds of music, but in what way is a very personal choice.