Watching the teacher/backleading

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lou
Actually - that's the most annoying thing ever. In class, when someone is always looking at the teachers & never looks you in the eye.

I would have to disagree with you on this. I have no objection to my partner watching the teachers if that is the best way for them to learn something. I know that I will watch the teachers almost exclusively until I am happy with each part of a move. Given the complexity of some of the moves taught now, it can take a while to figure out what you are supposed to do. It is a lot easier (for me) to copy what I see someone doing, rather than trying to follow verbal instructions.

But by the end of the class, when you are just repeating the moves, I will look at my partner. And strangely enough she usually looks at me. You seem to get more eye contact at this time than you ever get in freestyle.

David

[Lou]

Hi David,

Yup - of course I wouldn't advocate not ever looking at the teacher! Of course you need to see what they're doing.

There are just certain people who refuse to look at you - even when repeating the moves - or stringing a couple together.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Lou

Actually - that's the most annoying thing ever. In class, when someone is always looking at the teachers & never looks you in the eye. :reallymad

I'm always looking at the teacher. What they say is pretty inconsequential usually.

For me its about what they do.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by DavidB
I would have to disagree with you on this. I have no objection to my partner watching the teachers if that is the best way for them to learn something. I know that I will watch the teachers almost exclusively until I am happy with each part of a move. Given the complexity of some of the moves taught now, it can take a while to figure out what you are supposed to do. It is a lot easier (for me) to copy what I see someone doing, rather than trying to follow verbal instructions.

Do you still have this view, David?

and from James...
I'm always looking at the teacher. What they say is pretty inconsequential usually

I'd be inclined to think it's different for leaders than for followers...

... beginner ladies will invariably attempt to watch the teacher as the move is done to a count, which they won't yet realise is counterproductive, since they end up learning to dance the move from memory, rather than following a lead.

In the classes I'll usually have a pretty good idea how easily the lady will be able to follow the move, so when they're watching the teacher (and often looking stressed) I often say something like, "don't look at them - it'll be fine".

They look worried to start with, then they look amazed when they notice that they did the move without remembering what the steps were...

Of course it's not easy for them when they're partnered up with beginner guys that can't lead yet, but I can't help feeling that many of the seeds of anticipation are sown in this way.

Chris

[Simon r]

Originally posted by ChrisA


They look worried to start with, then they look amazed when they notice that they did the move without remembering what the steps were...

Of course it's not easy for them when they're partnered up with beginner guys that can't lead yet, but I can't help feeling that many of the seeds of anticipation are sown in this way.

Chris [/b]

I can not believe this quote are you for real
i think most new dancers would feel upset with a dancer saying to them do not watch the teacher watch me.
I understand you are trying to allow them to work out the meaning of lead and follow.
But as a new dancer i would be put off ,if i had read your comments
two new dancers can learn equaly as well from each other with a good teacher , i would say even more than dancing with an experienced dancer who may have a lot of bad habits
Did you not learn yourself by watching and learning from teachers first , i can say that i did and would never comment on how a person learns .

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Simon r
I can not believe this quote are you for real

Hurrah... at last I've managed to say something controversial

Did you not learn yourself by watching and learning from teachers first ,

Of course I did, but I'm making a distinction between the leader and the follower, and I'm also making a distinction between when the move is being taught one step at a time (in which case watching the teacher is obviously a good plan) and when it's being practised to a count, or indeed to music.

i think most new dancers would feel upset with a dancer saying to them do not watch the teacher watch me.

Suppose the move is a pretzel. It's been taught several times one step at a time, and everyone has been watching the teacher, which is fine. Now the time comes to dance it to a count. The guy offers his hand behind his back for the lady to take.

Perhaps you could explain exactly how it's helpful at this point for the lady to be watching the teacher? Ok, the example is with an intermediate move, but the principle is the same.

Even with beginners moves it is quite common for the lady to mistranslate what she thinks she sees on the stage and attempt to go in completely the wrong direction.

i can say that i did and would never comment on how a person learns .

Do you mean here, or in a class? I never say anything at all about the way people learn in a class.

All I'm getting at is the fact that, probably hundreds of times (I'm not exaggerating), I've been in a beginners class where the poor beginner lady is stressing - big time - about whether she'll be able to remember what's just been taught. Such stress is clearly counterproductive since it undermines her confidence, and hinders her from learning.

So I might say:

"Don't worry, it's the guy's job to remember the move, see if you can feel where I'm leading you"

Or I might say:

"You'll be able to do this fine, don't watch them..."

If I'm not taxiing then I'll generally be a lot more sparing with such comments, but if the girl is clearly experiencing more stress than she needs then I might say something even if I'm not.

Chris

[spindr]

I think it's fine for the follower to watch the teachers -- I'll try to turn around so that they can do so (if we're in a circle) -- otherwise I may stagger out of a row, so there's a line of sight. I think that it doesn't matter if you are either learning, or just doing the move to a count.

When you're trying to dance the move to music it can be a bit counterproductive if your follower is trying to rotate to keep the stage in view... but that's the same when I'm not sure how the move should be danced.

SpinDr.

[Foofs]

I tend to watch during the walking through part and the dancing to a count but when the music comes on I try for the ol' eye-contact.

But, question: in a class situation should I as the follower do what I am being taught or folloe where I am being (wrongly) led?

[foxylady]

Originally posted by Foofs
But, question: in a class situation should I as the follower do what I am being taught or folloe where I am being (wrongly) led?

I find this tricky. I usually try and correct the leader and show them how to do it the way its being taught, but that doesn't always go down well.... depending on how high an opinion of himself the chap has... (NB I always make darned sure I have double checked that I've got the move before correcting... God forbid that I thought that I was always right !!)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Foofs

But, question: in a class situation should I as the follower do what I am being taught or folloe where I am being (wrongly) led?

What I'd prefer my partners to do is to follow, even if I'm doing something wrong, but then tell me "hey, I don't think that's what the teacher was doing, shouldn't it go more like ..."

I'd like to be able to learn a move by having my partner backlead me through it, but right now it makes it a lot harder for me to learn when a girl is helping me that way.

Oh, and foxylady? It wrecks me when the girl backleads while I'm trying to learn not because I think I'm right and she's wrong (girls almost always pick stuff up much quicker than me), but just because I can't learn very well if I'm not leading.

But that's just me and I'm a reprehensible control freak.

[Lounge Lizard]

Yes they should watch the teacher....that's what we are there for!

All to often I will demonstrate a move before I teach it - there are always the ones who imediatly copy what I am doing, not really watching the demo, then talk the lady through the move when I am teaching it then.......(often getting it all wrong) and look look silly when everyone else has got it and they are struggling

My best one was 'Milk Tray Man' I had made up a new move, I was trying it out at Hastings and it really was a NEW move, this guy tells the ladies he is dancing with "no he is doing it wrong watch me not him"...bless him!!!

I like the dancers to watch the teacher, but then I will say "we are watching you" so you watch your partner.
And yes some still look at the stage while I am standing there doing nothing, after a couple of times they get the idea tho.
p

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gary
It wrecks me when the girl backleads while I'm trying to learn not because I think I'm right and she's wrong (girls almost always pick stuff up much quicker than me), but just because I can't learn very well if I'm not leading.

But that's just me and I'm a reprehensible control freak.

...........

It's not just you, Gary... and I don't think it's anything to do with control freakery.

Before I've learned a move well enough to be able to execute it and lead it, I might be a bit behind the beat for the first couple of executions, especially if there's a moderately complicated position to get to or through... and if the girl leads it faster than I'm processing it, the ensuing wrestling match usually just kills my learning process stone dead.

There are a few girls who lead it so well, though, in such a situation, that I'm more than grateful for the help. They are also skilful enough to relinquish the lead as soon as they realise I've got it

Chris

[Daisy Chain]

I find the amount of time I spend looking at the teacher is directly proportional to their gender and attractiveness It's a good excuse to stare at fit men.

Daisy

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Daisy Chain
I find the amount of time I spend looking at the teacher is directly proportional to their gender and attractiveness It's a good excuse to stare at fit men.

Ray doesn't read the forum, does he Daisy??

Trampy

[Simon r]

Daisy
why do you not stare at me then

[Foofs]

Originally posted by Gary
What I'd prefer my partners to do is to follow, even if I'm doing something wrong, but then tell me "hey, I don't think that's what the teacher was doing, shouldn't it go more like ..."

I think I'll go with this suggestion - thanks very much!

Might even get to try it out tonight ... mind you after being away for quite a few weeks I don't think I'll be much use!!

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

My best one was 'Milk Tray Man' I had made up a new move, I was trying it out at Hastings and it really was a NEW move, this guy tells the ladies he is dancing with "no he is doing it wrong watch me not him"...bless him!!!

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gary
Oh, and foxylady? It wrecks me when the girl backleads while I'm trying to learn ... because I can't learn very well if I'm not leading.

Ditto. I just get more confused if I'm backled. The move feels totally different to how it feels if you are doing it right and leading.

I think shoving me into the right position gets me through the move so it looks like I'm learning, but its an optical illusion, I usually stay just as confused.

I think the reason girls do it is because if you push a girl through a move in a class she tends to learn it because she isn't learning to lead it. So she figures what worked for her, ought to work for him.

I think you can indicate to him what to do with a bit of movement, but make him take the initiative to progress the move.

[foxylady]

Originally posted by foxylady
I usually try and correct the leader and show them how to do it the way its being taught...

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I think you can indicate to him what to do with a bit of movement, but make him take the initiative to progress the move.

Thats really what I meant by try and correct (with movements and words) - I hope I don't backlead (except in the dire-est circumstances), but perhaps others will disabuse me of this...

[Emma]

Backleading is evil.

However, here is a defence

A follower goes to a class. She learns a new move in the class pretty quickly, because for the first three rotations she is lucky enough to get experienced leaders, or she already knows the move. Next rotation, someone who says 'I don't know how to do this'. After extracting her almost broken arm from halfway up her back she attempts to explain where it is that he is probably going in the wrong direction, and holds up the roatation slightly meaning that someone loses a partner (oops). The next time she gets a man who says 'oh good, you look like you know what you're doing', so when the move goes slightly awry this time she applies a little pressure in the places where it feels like it's going wrongish and they get through the move fine together. By now onto the count, she gets a couple more fellas, one who has kindof got it, and another who says he hasn't but with a bit of light pressure in the right places really has. She's backleading him, of course.

Now apart from the complete fiction at the beginning of this little story where she gets three experienced leaders in a row, you have to understand that for most OK followers this is what happens nearly every time they do a class (and I do realise it works the other way around). Backleading becomes sort of inevitable.

It's taken me months and months to learn not to backlead (and I imagine I still do it sometimes ) I'd be prepared to bet that none of the leads contributing to this thread actually ever need or want someone to backlead them, and maybe the follows who they think are backleading them are just struggling with following them because when you get a 'good' dancer it often stuffs up your follow: you chaps are intimidating! (Yes, you are!!).

Anyway, backleading is evil. I do agree