Advanced Classes

[DavidB]

I know there have been a couple of threads in the past on Advanced classes, where everything from the content to the economics of the classes was discussed. But since then several classes have actually started, and hopefully a few people have been to them.

I'm interested to know what people think of them. What did they teach (difficult moves, lots of moves, technique, style etc) and how this matched up to what you wanted. Do you still go to them? Do they influence your choice of venue? Have you been to a venue, and never known about the advanced class. Are they a waste of good freestyle time?

David

[Gus]

Would also be interested in the Teachers experiences. I teach one once a month and no matter what preparation I do there is always a surprise as to what moves the dancers find to be easy and those that they just can't do. Is it dancer inability or poor teaching?

[spindr]

At the moment the advanced class I occasionally go to does a *lot* of Ceroc/Modern Jive moves mixed with lindy, hip-hop, charleston, etc. The problem *I* have is that I find that the moves and choreography may be advanced and the teachers can certainly dance it well. And I think that that may be part of the problem: the teachers are such natural dancers that they don't realise the difficulty of the moves for mere mortals; and sometimes don't realise that they don't *quite* move the way they actually say, e.g. instictively moving off of the lady's line -- but saying "step back".

I can keep up with most of the routine (but only because I've been taught lindy, etc. slowly at other classes) -- so although the class is definitely fun and energetic -- I don't *really* get the feeling that I've actually learnt much extra that I can take away. Plus, it's sometimes a bit awkward trying to lead followers when they've been taught in a rush.

To be honest, I sort of expect to do less moves but *really* do them in detail in an advanced class. I'm looking for a lot more information from the teachers -- to make sure that I'm learning their technique, rather than "running along behind", or just trying to copy them.

I sort of expect more of a break down; more detail on how to take a step (heel-led, ball, ball-flat), most importantly where my weight should be and how it should be moving and what the compression and tension should be in the arms or hold, etc. Maybe these are unrealistic expectations, but teachers in other classes for other dance styles seem to be able to impart this. I think I've learnt more about balance and lead and follow from a few weeks of WCS and Argentine Tango than from years of Modern Jive/Leroc/Ceroc.

SpinDr.

P.S. If anyone has any good ideas how to give teachers constructive feedback, then that could be really helpful.

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Gus
there is always a surprise as to what moves the dancers find to be easy and those that they just can't do.

meaning suprise that they always struggle on the the same ones that you thought would be easy or suprise in that it's never the same moves that two sets of dancers find difficult?

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
I know there have been a couple of threads in the past on Advanced classes, where everything from the content to the economics of the classes was discussed. But since then several classes have actually started, and hopefully a few people have been to them.

I'm interested to know what people think of them. What did they teach (difficult moves, lots of moves, technique, style etc) and how this matched up to what you wanted. Do you still go to them?

I went to 2 Ceroc advanced classes this week; first time I've been to Ceroc in probably 6 months. My thoughts:

The classes were smaller, and it felt the teachers were more aware of what people were doing wrong (or right!) than in the intermediate.

I found a lot more of the content was, if not "new", at least reasonably off the beaten path. It certainly required paying a lot more attention than the intermediate classes.

It seemed the emphasis was still on moves rather than styling or technique. I felt some of the moves were long and complicated for no good reason - if I'm going to learn something new, I would prefer to learn the simplest possible version. I don't want to be worrying about remembering the 14 count lead in to the move that doesn't teach me anything.

I don't particularly want to be taught moves without being taught how to lead them. I'm also not too keen on moves whose "difficulty" seems to be entirely because they're awkward and unnatural - when the demonstrator looks like she's uncomfortable doing the move, it's not a good sign!

I also think there needs to be a fairly strict policy of only letting people in at the start of the lesson. In one class several people turned up halfway through and partnering them was very hard work.

In general, I was quite pleasantly surprised by the amount of "new" material, but disappointed by the emphasis on moves - I'd rather do less moves in more detail. I'd also say that I think Amir's "intermediate" class at Hipsters is more demanding, and ultimately rewarding.

Dave

[Gus]

Originally posted by Chicklet
meaning suprise that they always struggle on the the same ones that you thought would be easy or suprise in that it's never the same moves that two sets of dancers find difficult?

I suppose its me thinking that move B is the hard move and they all seem to get it yet move C, which should be straight forward is the one they just can't get! I was teaching a basket pull-through variation on Tuesday ... not an overly complex move ... teaching it more from a style perspective, but a significant number of dancers seemed hell-bent on making it more complex. Never sure whether its people not listening ( dancers 'thinking' they know the move) or me not demonstrating clearly enough. Will be videoing my next few lessons to see if its the latter.

As a dancer, my view on advanced lessons (from a limited experience) is that instructors try to teach 'spaghetti arm' moves or big drops which add little to a dancers dancing repertoire and just causes mayhem on the dancefloor.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Gus
Would also be interested in the Teachers experiences. I teach one once a month and no matter what preparation I do there is always a surprise as to what moves the dancers find to be easy and those that they just can't do. Is it dancer inability or poor teaching?

It is suprising, what you think is the simplist can turn out to be the hardest!

At Camber did an ariels workshop with what I thought was an easy lead-in.
The lead-in took more time to teach than the ariel

Also done workshops where I started off easy - turned out not so easy.

[Gadget]

I don't know if the recent Beach Ballroom workshops were intended as "advanced", but they certainly required a higher level of concentration and observation than most of the other workshops I've been on:
While the moves were slightly more intricate and 'different' from the normal stuff, there were more of them strung together and that really taxed the little grey cells.
The concept of the workhops was introduced at the start, and the moves constructed lent themselves to that concept, but I think that I'm used to the concept being outlined as to how it applies to all the bits as you do them: Marc just did them and you had to use your own initiative to apply the principles during the workshop.
This is good because it meant that you could just do the moves if you didn't get the concept; and you could make it harder by applying the concept to the moves. The style of teaching makes most folk get what they can from the workshop no matter what their level. It was also bad because it felt like you were moving through moves at a rapid pace and not perfecting the concept behind them before going onto the next move.

I think that "advanced" styling, techhnique, movement and timing is very much an individual thing: you can be shown some ideas and directions, but implementation and execution is up to that person.

[bigdjiver]

Last night Phil Roberts was teaching in Bedford. I had some knowledge of all of the moves. Being freed from some of the need to concentrate I was able to appreciate the class more. I had postulated somewhere on a thread about advanced workshops that it took time to become an advanced dancer, and that perhaps the best way yo get there was to have th odd bit of advanced technique inserted into the intermediate class for people to ignore or take up when ready, becoming an advanced dancer in small steps. I had not appreciated how much that was part of the normal pattern in Bedford.

As well as teaching the moves Phil showed style tips and alternatives, all of them presented with humour. I am sure many in the class missed them altogether, as I must have done in the past, mind full of trying to learn the mechanics. Things like:
You can jazz it up a bit moving your feet like this, or like this.
You can turn your head like this, to check your partner is still there :-> or like this, and look cool, and for the next dance :->
We are doing his move quickly, for effect, (sound effects but you can do it slowly, or very, verrrrry slowwwwly.
You can block the return, just for an instant, or hold it there to match a break in the music.
This hardly adds up to a treatise on stylish dancing, but tips like these week after week add up to most of what it takes to become a stylish dancer, delivered in such a way that the class can pick it up at heir own pace.
Michaela does the same in her classes. At last I have come to understand why I do not see the same standard of dancer in some other classes.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Gus

Would also be interested in the Teachers experiences. I teach one once a month and no matter what preparation I do there is always a surprise as to what moves the dancers find to be easy and those that they just can't do. Is it dancer inability or poor teaching?

I found when teaching anything with multiple turns for both gets them every time if you don't break the move up in simple pendants. So really windy moves that are not comprehensible at first sight are the major challenge. Guys are used to turning girls inside out but when they have to turn themselves (or themselves at the same time) they struggle to invisage the move.

But in having said that, I also managed at some point to have two of those in a routine and nobody struggled. That makes me believe it is also experience and structure of the routine that makes a big deal of a difference.

Essentially, when I tought a really tricky move I broke down into many sections and kept repeating those sections a couple of times before I combined two of them. After having combined each section with the previous ONE I added a third section and so on. Sounds very time consuming but it actually isn't because you get them to understand what you are doing quite quickly.

Drops are easy to teach, the hard part there is to aslo keep up there awareness of the dangers.

[Mary]

I have been doing quite a few WCS lessons now (yup, and still struggling!), but recently had a private lesson. This lesson only dealt with basic 'beginner' stuff, but I would rate it as an advanced lesson because it was so specific and dealt with a good groundwork in technique - for me it was a tremendous class.

Now just pontificating for a bit, IMO all disciplines - sport, dance, whatever, to progress to any significant degree is very much dependant on good solid technique. MJ has it's appeal in that one can learn it without having to slave away at learning technique, and very good dancers develop. HOwever, I would observe that wihtout a good grounding in technique (quite a few people have already developed that from other dance disciplines - ballroom for example), one can only reach a certain level. The really top MJ dancers - performance & competition and those people you just can't take your eyes off, y'know those at the very pinnacle - it would appear that they all have that solid foundation of good technique to work from.

I guess, for me, an advanced class would have to be very heavily technique-based with a few cool looking moves thrown in as well.

Sorry to ramble - very stong beer.

M

[bigdjiver]

Mark & Simone Harding Workshop

This workshop is in two parts.
1) Style and Musicality: M&S will look at different types of music, showing you how to 'hit the hits' & offering basic tips to help you choreograph while you dance. This should give you a better understanding of how to fit the right moves to the right music at the right time.
2) Close moves with Style: this aspect of the workshop focuses on those moves (often done to blues music) that tend to be done a little closer than regular Ceroc moves.

Not "advanced": M&S are also guest teachers at the new Biggleswade venue opening at the Weatherly Centre 8 Feb, and at Derby 6 Feb & Peterborough 7 Feb

[TiggsTours]

My biggest problem with Advanced classes is that all they ever do is teach advanced moves, so what exactly do the followers get out of it? If you are leading in an advanced class, you learn the move, you then have the choice as to whether or not you chose to use it on the social dance floor. If you are following in advanced class, you should already know well enough that you don't learn the move, you learn to follow it, and if you can follow one complicated move, its pretty much follows you'll be able to follow any other, as the basics of how to follow do not change from one move to the next. Occasionally a move may be taught where the follower does actually need to know it, due to a signal for example, but very rarely. As the follower, you then get no choice on the social dance floor as to whether you ever do that move again anyway!

I have been to very few Advanced classes where I, as a follower, actually felt I had learnt something that I could use on the social dancefloor. I'd like to see more advanced classes that are not purely focussed on teaching yet another series of complicated moves to the leaders, and actually offer something to we followers.

[marty_baby]

Originally Posted by Mary

IMO all disciplines - sport, dance, whatever, to progress to any significant degree is very much dependant on good solid technique. MJ has it's appeal in that one can learn it without having to slave away at learning technique, and very good dancers develop. HOwever, I would observe that wihtout a good grounding in technique (quite a few people have already developed that from other dance disciplines - ballroom for example), one can only reach a certain level. The really top MJ dancers - performance & competition and those people you just can't take your eyes off, y'know those at the very pinnacle - it would appear that they all have that solid foundation of good technique to work from.

I guess, for me, an advanced class would have to be very heavily technique-based with a few cool looking moves thrown in as well.

Sorry to ramble - very stong beer.

M

I'm no expert, but Mary sounds absolutely bang on IMHO.... technique huh?? - It works - you are a joy to dance with Mary! .....and I don't think its rambling on at all!

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by TiggsTours

I'd like to see more advanced classes that are not purely focussed on teaching yet another series of complicated moves to the leaders, and actually offer something to we followers.

but they are not "advanced" classes: what is taught about technique benifits all levels of dancer - I would say at their most challenging, they are still "intermediate" classes.