Does music define the dance?

[Gadget]

Does music define the dance, or does the dance define the music?

Salsa is done to salsa music, but is the music without the dance actually salsa? If you dance salsa to any other music, is it salsa? Same for the Tango, Flamenco, Shag,...

So if we dance Modern Jive, does the music have to contain elements of "modern", or even "jive"?

[Lynn]

Some factors - was the piece of music written to be danced to, then surely the dance is defining that piece of music - or has the dance been adapted to suit the music? (from what I have seen, from my limited MJ experience so far, MJ can be adapted to different styles of music, and also that the music is selected to fit the dance...).

[Geordieed]

I read some time ago that Ceroc dancing is a framework from which we can then add different styles to which then gives form to the dance. When this question comes up it normally leads onto the term referred to as 'Characterisation'. An answer would be that the music will imply the character in which you dance to that particular track. The shapes and lines that you adopt to interpret the music and the style in which you execute the moves. As well as creating moves in a certain style you can adopt the feel of that kind of dance.

This can be one of the fundamentals of dancing within MJ as we know it. I am no great expert and am learning not what it means but how to recreate that on a dancefloor. It is often overlooked by alot of dancers and from my perspective will take years and many visits to other forms of dance to do well. From limited experience it does open up your dancing. It is a technique I would love to see the very best 'advanced' dancers challenged more when it comes to competitions etc... As well as great to dance with your partner it is great to watch.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Gadget

So if we dance Modern Jive, does the music have to contain elements of "modern", or even "jive"?

ODA Moment - On
Remember that 'Modern' was a simply a marketing word put in to differentiate LeRoc/CeRoc from 'old' trad Jive ...

If MJ is a dance form to be defined by music, you are making an assumption that MJ is indeed a dance style and not a mongrel ... a series of moves pinched, loaned and bastardised from a plethora of 'real' dance styles ..... so if the dance 'style' is a mongrel ... it would be hard for a single class of music to represent it ...
ODA Moment - Off

Now that I've just read the above ... it may actualy make some kind of sense ...first time for everything I suppose...

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Gus

ODA Moment - On
Remember that 'Modern' was a simply a marketing word put in to differentiate LeRoc/CeRoc from 'old' trad Jive ...ODA Moment - Off

Well even Ballroom dances are "modern" except of course "old-time" and "sequence".

Interesting that the first "modern jive" (Ceroc) event was ~20 years after development of ballroom jive. Now in 2004 modern jive is older than the jive was when it was "modernised"

SpinDr.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Gus

ODA Moment - On
Remember that 'Modern' was a simply a marketing word put in to differentiate LeRoc/CeRoc from 'old' trad Jive ...

I've never really quite been able to understand why it's called 'Jive' at all, let alone 'Modern'.

From what I've seen of Ballroom jive (admittedly, not a great deal), what we do doesn't really have that much in common. Might as well call it Modern Rock and Roll, or Modern Lindy as Modern Jive.

Maybe there could be another way of describing the dance (and no, I'm no suggesting calling it by any of the company names that currently exist ).

Trampy

[Gus]

Originally Posted by spindr

Well even Ballroom dances are "modern" except of course "old-time" and "sequence".

So ... and please forgive my ignorance on this matter, can the word 'modern' be taken as merely a word to separate one form of a dance from another ... and not neccesarily imply that the dance style itself relates to contemporary culture or music. If so, that would give greater wieght to the argument that MJ is a 'music-less' dance style.

[DavidB]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

From what I've seen of Ballroom jive (admittedly, not a great deal), what we do doesn't really have that much in common.

Then again Ballroom Jive (as done in competitions) has almost nothing in common with any traditional form of 'jive' (eg jitterbug).

[Emma]

Originally Posted by Gus

..... so if the dance 'style' is a mongrel ... it would be hard for a single class of music to represent it ...

Makes sense to me.

..or is Modern Jive defined by the fact that it is danced to no definable type of music?

Does that sentence make sense at all? I think I need a lay down - but I have to go out and undefinably DJ

[charlie_no_socks]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Does music define the dance, or does the dance define the music?

Salsa is done to salsa music, but is the music without the dance actually salsa? If you dance salsa to any other music, is it salsa? Same for the Tango, Flamenco, Shag,...

So if we dance Modern Jive, does the music have to contain elements of "modern", or even "jive"?

At a creative, artistic and enjoyment level I don't think either dance or music should be defined. Categories are useful for pedagogy, history books and things like competitions. Its all just movement.

(Having said that, if you're doing what people regard as Lindy and you change the music, its still Lindy. Hopping up and down on one foot is still hopping whatever music you play. It doesn't become Russian Ballet just because Tchaikovsky comes on the radio.)

Dance what ever way you like to whatever kind of music you like dancing to, I say!

There are some people that think you should only dance salsa to salsa music, jive to jive music and lindy to swing. They get upset if you change their 'rules'. These people have very little in common with the innovators and creative minds that created these dance and music forms in the first place.

there is some (perhaps dubious) salsa history at: http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/salsa.htm

I have found most histories of popular dance forms to be vague at best and contradictory with each other at worse.

[Daisy Chain]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Does music define the dance, or does the dance define the music?

Just had a strange thought. how do you explain "Dad" dancing...?

[spindr]

Originally Posted by Gus

So ... and please forgive my ignorance on this matter, can the word 'modern' be taken as merely a word to separate one form of a dance from another ... and not neccesarily imply that the dance style itself relates to contemporary culture or music. If so, that would give greater wieght to the argument that MJ is a 'music-less' dance style.

Well, 'Oxford dictionary of dance' [2002] doesn't list Modern Jive (or Ceroc): but does list "modern dance" -- "A term used... to denote theatrical dance, which is not based on the academic school of classical ballet. ... By the end of the 20th century the barriers between ballet and modern dance were less pronounced as dancers and choreographers worked increasingly in both styles."

Alex Moore's 'Ballroom Dancing' [orig. publ. 1936] begins "Perhaps the most significant point of Modern Ballroom Dancing can be found in the way in which it was able to gain prominence in a fairly short space of time." Without comparing the footwork descriptions of the Waltz in 'Ballroom Dancing' and in Cecil Rault's 'Old Time Dancing' [1964] too closely, there seem to be significant differences, e.g. "modern" waltz tempo is given as 31 bars a minute, and old-time waltz tempo is given as 42 bars per minute.

My take on it is that "Modern" is really a buzzword for "New", "Improved", "Different", e.g. "New Vogue" dancing that seems to be an Australian set of sequence dances -- quoting from http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~don/pubs/vogue.html "New Vogue dances originated in the 1930s and '40s, when some Australian dancers rebelled against the formal balletic foot work of the English Old Time dances."

However, if you view Modern Jive as a "street dance" constantly reinventing itself, then there's no reason not to consider that it should be kept up to date. But in that case it's no more modern than salsa.

Ending on a controversial note -- maybe defining modern jive by music is probably most easily done by gauging the music that DJs are prepared to play for it? I don't remember hearing any "Busted" or "McFly" tracks at a MJ event recently

SpinDr -- down wit' de kidz -- second childhood actually!

[Gus]

Originally Posted by spindr

Ending on a controversial note -- maybe defining modern jive by music is probably most easily done by gauging the music that DJs are prepared to play for it? I don't remember hearing any "Busted" or "McFly" tracks at a MJ event recently

Down South maybe .... but get to where the DJs are with the times and you'll hear DJ Tiesto, BoogiePimps, Sugababes, David Guetta etc. being played as mainstream ...... they are modern ... but is the dancing?????

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally Posted by spindr

Ending on a controversial note -- maybe defining modern jive by music is probably most easily done by gauging the music that DJs are prepared to play for it? I don't remember hearing any "Busted" or "McFly" tracks at a MJ event recently

DJ's can only expand their music if the dancers keep up with them
There are some fantastic tracks that could be danced to but are not mainstream enough to 'fill' the dance floor.
I try new tracks at every venue I DJ at every week, more often than not I get critisised for it and always have to sandwich them between an LAeX or Kylie type track

I would like to start a monthly (London based) dance 'Funky Friday' with DJ's that find new tracks at the decks (Dan H, Emma, Toby, Funky Si, Me etc.) and avoiding the mainstream MJ tracks but I dont think the dancers would turn up
be good to get feedback on this idea from dancers and DJ's
Peter

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

I would like to start a monthly (London based) dance 'Funky Friday' with DJ's that find new tracks at the decks (Dan H, Emma, Toby, Funky Si, Me etc.) and avoiding the mainstream MJ tracks but I dont think the dancers would turn up
be good to get feedback on this idea from dancers and DJ's
Peter

Well ... I'm in the process of putting together a small group of dancers who I can torture by trying out my new and 'challenging' music at a series of weekend dance labs ... the ide being either me proving to them that the tracks are danceable ... or them proving to me that they ain't. Either way, I'm hoping we all learn from the experinence.

If we can get this going is the dance wastelands of the barren N West, I would have thought such a concept would definitely work down South in 'Dance God' country

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

I would like to start a monthly (London based) dance 'Funky Friday' with DJ's that find new tracks at the decks (Dan H, Emma, Toby, Funky Si, Me etc.) and avoiding the mainstream MJ tracks but I dont think the dancers would turn up
be good to get feedback on this idea from dancers and DJ's
Peter

........

I'd be there. BFF eat your heart out...

Fantastic idea, Peter.

I reckon those that turned up would make you work hard, though... Wade in the Water is rapidly heading for Dance-the-night-away territory I reckon, and I loved it not that long ago.

Chris

[Emma]

Originally Posted by charlie_no_socks

Hopping up and down on one foot is still hopping whatever music you play. It doesn't become Russian Ballet just because Tchaikovsky comes on the radio.)

Damn, I thought I was getting better at Russian Hopping.....

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

........

I'd be there. BFF eat your heart out...

Fantastic idea, Peter.

I reckon those that turned up would make you work hard, though... Wade in the Water is rapidly heading for Dance-the-night-away territory I reckon, and I loved it not that long ago.

Chris

I reckon I could easily play 8 hours of non stop new (or mainly unheard) good dance tracks from all genres swing, blues, pop, dance, latin and funky stuff.
I expect the other DJ's have loads of music that does not quite get to mainstream dances
Then there is the N.E.R.D. B12 Outkast music that seldom gets played
so lets find a venue... where is best location
peter

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Lounge Lizard

I would like to start a monthly (London based) dance 'Funky Friday' with DJ's that find new tracks at the decks (Dan H, Emma, Toby, Funky Si, Me etc.) and avoiding the mainstream MJ tracks but I dont think the dancers would turn up
be good to get feedback on this idea from dancers and DJ's
Peter

Oh yes!! We'll come!
Rachel