Scots Comp 2003 - Teachers or no

[Gus]

As I'll be away for a few weeks, I thought I'd leave a debating point behind.

In the Advanced Final, the brave Scottish coupled battled on heroicly against 4 teachers. Why no Scottish teachers? Well, the rules forbade entry by any Ceroc trained teachers and there did not appear to be an entry from LeRoc Scotland teachers. Is this fair?

Should ALL teachers be banned (level paying field?) or should ALL teachers be allowed to compete. Would this make for a more competitive, higher standard event or would it kill off the spirit that made the Champs such an awesome success?

I know we've debated this before but hindsight has a way of changing views.

So ....... your thoughts please.

{PS ... Franck/Scot - have you got a more formalised strategy for gaining feedback for next year .... after you get your breath back after this year?}

[SwingSwingSwing]

Originally posted by Gus
In the Advanced Final, the brave Scottish coupled battled on heroicly against 4 teachers. Why no Scottish teachers? Well, the rules forbade entry by any Ceroc trained teachers and there did not appear to be an entry from LeRoc Scotland teachers. Is this fair?

The rules for Advanced Freestyle stated "Dance teachers/ professionals are not allowed to enter this section" which I interpret as saying that no dance teacher, no matter what style or training, can enter. So, if the winning and third placed couples are indeed teachers, why were they allowed to compete?

Also, the Ceroc HQ web site lists an "Annalisa Martin" as being a teacher. Is this the same person who was in the third place couple?

SwingSwingSwing

[Gadget]

I think that teachers became teachers because they love to dance and want to share it with everyone; to dissalow them to dance seems kind of cruel to me.
However, they are obviously some of the best dancers, so having them compete against the very people they are training is not very fair ~ how about a seperate category?

[Scot]

Okay here goes

There was a discrepancy on the rules given out to competitors in that it did not specify "Ceroc" however the application forms which were issued well ahead of any rules indicated "Ceroc trained teachers only". This was an administrative error on my part and I do apologise. Putting this event together for the Red Cross at short notice was fraught with a few opportunities and that was one were I clearly slipped up. However in my defence I was quite specific on the application forms.

Now wrt teachers competing I have a view and it is a personal one only. Ceroc Teachers are not stopped from competing because they are that good, because at the end of the day I do not believe that is true and in my travels I have seen many people that freestyle only that are at least as good if not better than many teachers Ceroc or otherwise.

Teachers certainly within Ceroc are taught to teach moves accurately and to present the information in a concise manner. They are not taught any style or advanced dancing techniques. Any style that they have acquired has most likely come from self development or from attending the same style workshops that many freestyle people have attended.

Now the reason that I did not let Ceroc Teachers participate is not because they were better than anybody but rather because: 1) Had a Ceroc Teacher won there would probably be inferences of favouritism. 2.) In reality Ceroc Teachers would not probably have been given a fair chance because other Ceroc Teachers judging would probably have been worried about the first point.

Lastly at the end day this was primarily a Charity event and in that respect everyone that participated was a winner certainly for the Red Cross anyway.

There you go deep breath

Once again thanks for making it a great day...

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Should ALL teachers be banned (level paying field?) or should ALL teachers be allowed to compete. Would this make for a more competitive, higher standard event or would it kill off the spirit that made the Champs such an awesome success?

Well, with hindsight, my views are pretty much the same... I agree with Scot, Ceroc teachers should not be allowed to compete in any of the main Freestyle categories (except Lucky dip). On the other hand, I think that teachers of other dance organisations should be allowed to compete in the Advanced category (but not in the Intermediate). I don't see a discrepancy there, and as long as we are judging our own competition, we have to remove all possibilities of bias and un-fairness.
Scot and I stressed all along that we wanted the Scottish Comp. to be a more relaxed / fun event, and we certainly succeeded in that.

Originally posted by Gus
{PS ... Franck/Scot - have you got a more formalised strategy for gaining feedback for next year .... after you get your breath back after this year?}

No formalised system in place yet. We have already received a few emails with suggestions / constructive criticism, and we would welcome more such feedback, as I am sure there are areas where we could have done better, after all, that was the first such event organized in Scotland, and as Scot says, he had precious little time to get it off the ground, and did a sterling job too!
Of course, this forum will be useful in gathering feedback and discussing next year's event.

Franck.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Scot
Okay here goes

Lastly at the end day this was primarily a Charity event and in that respect everyone that participated was a winner certainly for the Red Cross anyway.

There you go deep breath

Once again thanks for making it a great day...

And it was a great day

I've already made a few comments privately and it's difficult to say too much with out appearing to be suffering from 'sour grapes' but I think there's a degree of naivety on our part in trying to make such an even purely for fun

Gus has made the point before and I've agreed, that the competiton between teachers down south to gain a reputation and to to add to their CV so that they can teach and do workshops is pretty fierce. There isn't the same level of rivalry here as there is down south so the Scotish Comp will attract more teachers - which in raising the profile and the standard is a good thing. However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win.

And of course there's nothing wrong with that - even if the rest of us do it for fun we still want to do our best on the day.

I think, as others have suggested, that an Open category as in Blackpool would be great as it would allow all teachers and professionals to compete and would be a great spectacle.

Franck and Scot are correct in saying that Ceroc teachers are not always better than some other dancers and they are not trained dancers but teachers. It is an issue that's been raised before and will be debated again no doubt but the Scottish Comp doersn't have to emulate the London Champs exactly so why not have 3 categories and see how many teachers want to compete agianst each other

This shouldn't detract from what was a wonderful day and congrats to everyone who contributed and to Scot and the others for organising it at such short notice.

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win.

Well I am sure we can take them on, and I reckon that if they make the effort to come to Scotland and take part in any category, then they will contribute to the day. After all, we all watching top dancers give their best on the day... So either way, it will be a great show.
It seems there is a lot of demand for an open category, and I would be interested in more feedback from everyone as to the pros and cons of an extra category. Nothing is set in stone, and we were under no obligation to follow the London format, it was just easier
It would be great to be able to call the event the "Ceroc Scottish Open"

Franck.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Franck
Well I am sure we can take them on, and I reckon that if they make the effort to come to Scotland and take part in any category, then they will contribute to the day.
Franck.

When you say 'we' Franck.who are you referring to exactly We have have some really 'fabby' dancers ( to use a phrase from someone I know !!) who can certainly compete at a high level but at the moment most of the best dancers in Scotland are actually the teachers who can't compete and some of the best men around don't want to compete.

As for contributing to the day - yep, just seeing great dancers is wonderful for the crowd and I heard a few dancers using the term 'inspired' which is great. However, some of these dancers won't add anything more - nor perhaps should they have to.

Although both James and Elliot entered the Lucky Dip which was great but many others who compete only for the title will attend for the one competition and then leave.

The only other suggestin I would make would be to leave a gap late afternoon and have all the finals after a rest ( and not just because I was knackered ) but having them about 7.00 would be a nice way to kick off the evening and allow more freestyle and give everyone a breather.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by bill foreman
However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win.

I'll remember next time I go to a competition that
- I shouldn't dance with anyone else
- I'm not allowed to enjoy myself
- I shouldn't have to pay the same as everyone else to get in, because I'm not interested in the freestyle

I'll make sure I keep an eye on Roger Chin, Clayton & Janine, Ray, Heather (the London one), Amir & Kate, Graham & Sarah etc and make sure they don't dance with anyone but their partner.

Sorry Bill, but that is a complete load of b*******s!

David

[John S]

As someone who is happy to be in the Intermediate sections and has no expectations or ambitions to ever be in an Advanced section, I would definitely like to see teachers and dance profesionals excluded from the Advanced - an Open section seems fine, if sufficient numbers could be attracted. Don't know who would do the judging, though - an audience clapometer???

If that doesn't happen, then those non-professional / social / fun dancers who are well above the current Intermediate competition standard will be squeezed out of the Advanced, and to have any chance of success they will enter the Intermediate section, which is already overcrowded - I guess 90% of the dancers who actually attend a competition event such as Musselburgh/Blackpool/London are at roughly the same (ie Intermediate) level.

[Graham]

Originally posted by John S
As someone who is happy to be in the Intermediate sections and has no expectations or ambitions to ever be in an Advanced section, I would definitely like to see teachers and dance profesionals excluded from the Advanced - an Open section seems fine, if sufficient numbers could be attracted. Don't know who would do the judging, though - an audience clapometer???

If that doesn't happen, then those non-professional / social / fun dancers who are well above the current Intermediate competition standard will be squeezed out of the Advanced, and to have any chance of success they will enter the Intermediate section, which is already overcrowded - I guess 90% of the dancers who actually attend a competition event such as Musselburgh/Blackpool/London are at roughly the same (ie Intermediate) level.

Clearly not very many people believe themselves to be advanced - perhaps if there were another category which included teachers this might encourage more people to "move up", which would hopefully have the knock-on effect of encouraging more people to enter intermediate. Personally, having now attended my first competition, I realise that the intermediate category could be at least as much fun (with a like-minded partner) as the Lucky Dip, but only if it's not so packed with good dancers that it's really guaranteed you'll get eliminated in the first round.

The judging for an open category could be a problem, but as you really only need 3 or 4, not an insurmountable one, surely? I mean, I'm sure there must be one or two people who would just never ever want to enter anyway. Alternatively, maybe John's suggestion isn't so bad - why not have a panel of "audience" judges (let's say people who had entered intermediate or advanced, to ensure some degree of modern jive knowledge) scoring, and discarding the highest/lowest score, as in figure skating and gymnastics.

[Scot]

Now that is quite a good idea.

We will give that one some thought for the next event

Scot

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Graham
perhaps if there were another category which included teachers this might encourage more people to "move up", which would hopefully have the knock-on effect of encouraging more people to enter intermediate.

I'm all in favour of more categories. But don't have too many - otherwise the audience can lose interest.
The audience is the biggest difference between 'swing' comps and ballroom comps. In 'swing' comps the audience will watch and support everybody in every round. In ballroom you only watch your friends and the top category. You don't want to lose the audience, whatever you do.

The judging for an open category could be a problem

Another way is to let each couple dance individually, and let the other competitors judge. It only tends to work when you have enough couples taking part (5 or more).

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by Graham
The judging for an open category could be a problem, but as you really only need 3 or 4, not an insurmountable one, surely?

Another problem in my view, is that at the top level (which we are trying to attract / serve with an open category), all dancers will be very good, and what we will be judging won't be how good they are, but how popular / fashionable their style of dancing is... This is not a big deal, but worth bearing in mind. The idea of a panel of judges from the audience is an interesting one indeed, and could lead to some interesting results...

Great ideas so far, so keep them coming.
The Scottish Comp. is smaller and therefore more flexible, I am sure we can make it the best in the land if we try!

Franck.

[JYork18]

It is with a little trepidation that I join this discussion, but I feel I'd like to add something.

First of all - A MASSIVE CONGRATULATIONS TO THE ENTIRE TEAM WHO ORGANISED AND RAN THE EVENT. Having been to many competitions mostly as a spectator (only twice to compete - once in the lucky dip, and once three years ago to compete in the intermediate) , the Scottish Championships was the first one that actually ran to time, had a fiar and unbiased judging system, encouraged dancers from all over the country to compete and still managed to keep a fun atmosphere throughout the whole day! I will certainly be back again next year!!

Which brings me to the reply to this thread. It is really unfortunate that the debate over teacher entry has raised it's head in this forum, and yet I completely understand the reasons why. Before I give my personal opinion on teacher entry, I would like to further the comments made by DavidB (3rd place Advanced). At NO POINT prior to entry or during the competition did I feel as though I was there just to win! It is for this reason that Lynn and I came to Scotland on the Saturday to come to the freestyle. Both of us dance for the enjoyment, not the competition, and in fact Lynn only entered with me at the last moment because my original partner was too young according to the Ceroc rules! (She was only 17). So far as us both being teachers is concerned - Lynn has only been teaching for 6 months, and in a part of the UK that only attracts about 200 people a week, of which 1/4 attend her venue! As for me - I have been approached to teach by several Jive organisations but have had to turn them all down because my job (where I travel 1000 miles a week) doesn't allow me to commit to a regular venue. I have, however, been asked to teach workshops in the past - to which I have agreed, but these I could count on one hand!! I have never recieved any formal teacher training apart from the logistics behind jumps and lifts which were banned from this competition anyway!! The reason I'm up on my soap box, is that I'm really disappointed that it has been voiced that: and I quote:

"However, it should be clear to Franck and Scot that these dancers are not competing for fun or contributing to the whole day but on the whole are there to win."

I completely agree with David - we paid our money, danced our socks off with as many people as possible and in my opinion contributed to the day as a whole. Had david not been there, £1000 of shoes would not have been sold contributing a further £150 to the Red Cross, and I couldn't begin to tell you how many people approached Lynn and I after the comp. congratulating us and showering us with compliments. One lady told Lynn that she would have "paid the money just to watch us dance" - which I think sums up the contribution we made to the competition!! I know you say there are no sour groups Bill, but are you sure?

Whew!! I've just read that back, and realise that I may be coming on a little strong! Having danced in nearly all the venues in Scotland, and enjoyed myself there more than anywhere else in England, I don't want to jeopardise my entry in the future! Deep Breath James!

What I think this thread has highlighted though is that for next year, a separate category does need to be adopted to allow teachers to compete. In a conversation I had with Franck, he even said that it is the advanced category people love to watch! I agree - as it does manage to showcase the "best of the best". So why not have a "showcase" category. Allow anyone to enter, including teachers, keep it freestyle but maybe have it judged by the audience, not by the team of judges that are there for the rest of the categories. Give every member of the audience a voting form, and let them decide. Keep the prize simple (no money for example) - which will keep the "professional competitors" away, and give the limelight grabbing titles to the advanced category instead of the showcase which will keep the "CV builders" away! That way - people like David and myself will still be able to enter, but will hopefully stop people considering themselves unworthy for a place in the "advanced" category.

A final point - I think that it is the names of the categories that stop people from entering. This year, only 5 couples entered the "advanced" whereas in my opinion, there were at least 5 couples in the "intermediate" that could easily have held their own in the advanced. By calling it an "advanced" category you only appeal to people who consider themselves advanced dancers, which to be brutally honest is usually those who are very confident; self assured; and who have usually been around the Jive circuit for years. It is difficult to find an altenative that suits everybody but how about this:

Category A: Dancers with less than 1 years Jive experience.

Cateogry B: Dancers with between 1 and 3 years Jive experience

Category C: Dancers with more than 3 years experience.

Category D: Showcase.

I know that some people improve over time whereas others plateau much sooner, but something on these lines may encourage more competitors without them having to pigeon hole their ability?

I don't know - it's definitely an interesting debate, and I look forward to keeping up with it's progress.

THANK YOU ALL ONCE AGAIN, for making the weekend of the 19th 20th October so enjoyable!

P.S. Where do you dance Bill? It's just that I managed to grab David for a dance, and Elliot, but couldn't seem to find you at an appropriate moment. Gender bias? What's that? Look forward to seeing you all again soon when I'm back North of the Border.

James

[Franck]

Originally posted by JYork18
It is with a little trepidation that I join this discussion, but I feel I'd like to add something.

Wow! that was some post James...
I am glad to finally be able to put a face to the name / and to the many reports of you dancing like me

I agree with many of your points, and your contribution to the day was very important. I would hate to discourage dancers or teachers from entering.
The main lesson here is that rules must be clearly defined in advance, and then strictly enforced. I don't believe there are any sour grapes from any competitors, and any points raised so far, have been very important as feedback, so we can improve next year.
I am sure that there are people who take competitions very seriously (at the expense of the event themselves) but none were in Musselburgh on Sunday. Everyone who was there danced their socks off with everyone else, which explains why everyone was so emphatically positive about the day.

Originally posted by JYork18
A final point - I think that it is the names of the categories that stop people from entering. This year, only 5 couples entered the "advanced" whereas in my opinion, there were at least 5 couples in the "intermediate" that could easily have held their own in the advanced.

I think you have a point there, and we should be thinking of re-naming all the categories. However, due to either modesty or a desire to be a "big fish in a small pond", we will never avoid people who register below their abilities...

Thanks for your kind words about Scotland, and I can assure you that you will be more than welcome in future visits.

Franck.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by JYork18
DavidB (3rd place Advanced)

My quote, but not my dancing!! I was stuck in London practicing for a cabaret this weekend. (And I teach once a year, so I thought I couldn't compete.)

There are people who take competing very seriously. It is their choice, their money, their time. They can do what they want with it. But virtually all the serious competitors dance for fun as well, and probably do more freestyle than 90% of jivers. There are a couple of exceptions who prefer competing and performing to social dancing, but so what. Are you going to put it in the rules that you can only compete if you have at least 20 dances in the evening???

I did post a lot prior to the competition, but the alternative was to wait until now and say "I've seen that happen before." As it turns out I wouldn't have had much to say. I've never seen anything like this. No-one has complained about the venue, the organisation, the timekeeping, the judging, the music, the winners, the compere etc. Even though I wasn't there I have to congratulate Scot and everyone else for running such a good event.

David Barker

[DavidB]

And I apologise to Bill - my earlier post was a bit ott. Sorry.:sorry :sorry :sorry

[Wendy]

Re. teachers

Go on, go on, go on .....let them play !!!

" A good teacher does not necessarily a Fred Astaire make "
(old Chinese proverb )

Wx

[Bowser]

Wendy, I love the proverb made me chuckle

There is another which has not much to do with the post but with fred astair... "Look at Fred with awe then remember that Ginger Rogers did everything he did BUT Backwards and in High Heels!"

this topic has been a very interesting read

Sunday was fantastic... thanks Scot and to all behind the scenes and in front