Lead or Follow

**Minnie M** · 27th-September-2004, 06:48 PM

I can lead the 6 basic moves in West Coast Swing, WCS is such a lovely dance however quite difficult to learn. I have been 'trying' to learn this dance for many years, mainly because I don't get much practice. Would love this dance to really take off so I will have lots and lots of partners to dance with.

Although I am an average WCS dancer I am more experienced than most of the followers taking lessons at the moment, therefore, whenever there are beginner classes I help out by 'leading' as there are normally extra women. IMO this helps the followers as I know what they are experiencing - but thinking again, would I be more helpful being a follower

so the leaders get the benifit of my experience.

**Tiggerbabe** · 27th-September-2004, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnie M

would I be more helpful being a follower

so the leaders get the benefit of my experience.

It's a tough call Minnie - do they have freestyle after the class?
Like yourself, I will often be the "leader" in the classes (I'm talking about ceroc) due to there being extra ladies but it is good for the beginner men to lead more experienced dancers as well as other beginners.
I always try to dance with as many of the guys as I can in freestyle so if you get the opportunity to do this then you'll be a huge asset to the night

p.s. Got to do some WCS at the BFG with Sheepy - it was great to get the chance, and he was very patient with me as I'm very rusty

Daisy · 27th-September-2004, 10:23 PM

Have to agree with you Minnie. Have been doing a few WCS classes recently and I'm loving it. Such a beautiful dance to watch when being done well.

Can't wait to do some more classes next w/end in Woking.

Paul Warden took the workshop I attended yesterday at Bisley. He is such a great teacher

as well as a fabulous dancer.

There doesn't seem to be an established WCS scene in the UK yet so it is just emerging. It's a great time to get involved........at the ground floor. Now the only way is UP!

**under par** · 27th-September-2004, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisy

Now the only way is UP!

UP does that mean me ......Under Par.?

Yogi_Bear · 27th-September-2004, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisy

Have to agree with you Minnie. Have been doing a few WCS classes recently and I'm loving it. Such a beautiful dance to watch when being done well.

Can't wait to do some more classes next w/end in Woking.

Paul Warden took the workshop I attended yesterday at Bisley. He is such a great teacher

as well as a fabulous dancer.

There doesn't seem to be an established WCS scene in the UK yet so it is just emerging. It's a great time to get involved........at the ground floor. Now the only way is UP!

Agree with Minnie. West Coast Swing is great to dance. If only there were more opportunities without having to travel to the south east. I am even buying CDs with a view to their WCS potential, so I must be getting hooked....

**Minnie M** · 28th-September-2004, 08:44 AM

Wow !

I am so please there is such an interest in WCS - we have been trying to get it established here for about 6 years now

All thanks to the amazing Lily & David B, without their inspiration it would have died over here years ago

They are both such great role models - and now we have Paul Warden, who has captured the look of the American professionals and doesn't that look good

Have to say I still prefer David's lead

If anyone followers would like some help with the basic moves, I am happy to lead you for practice OR any of the leads want to practice PLEASE ask me to dance - I am happy to be WCS taxi dancer if it helps.

Hopefully I will see some of you on Saturday at Woking

PS: If anyone wants to know more about WCS classes etc., please PM me

MartinHarper · 24th-November-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnie M

(In WCS) whenever there are beginner classes I help out by 'leading' as there are normally extra women. IMO this helps the followers as I know what they are experiencing - but thinking again, would I be more helpful being a follower

so the leaders get the benifit of my experience.

My current feeling is that it is helpful to have female leaders balancing the numbers in a class, if they also lead that dance in freestyle (or will lead it, once confident enough).
If they don't lead the dance in freestyle, it can stunt their development as leaders. This may make them less beneficial to the followers in class, and it that situation they are probably more useful as an experienced follower.

*Andy McGregor* · 24th-November-2005, 02:20 PM

I've been thinking about WCS. I've done a dozen lessons but do them so infrequently. By the next time I do a lesson I end up remembering the names of the moves but not much else.

IMHO, WCS will be a minority dance because it's very hard to learn relative to Modern Jive. It's often tried out by modern jivers looking for something new. But it's so hard to learn relative to MJ a lot of guys are put off going back.

It IS a lovely dance which is great fun to do. And you can do it to music you can't MJ to. But, against that it's hard to learn, there's hardly anywhere to do it, there's hardly anywhere to learn it, there's hardly anyone who does it, etc, etc, etc.

What I would prefer to see is dancers getting really good at MJ. IMHO, done at it's best MJ is just as good as WCS in terms of fun: done at it's worst, MJ is dreadful. What we need are better MJ schools dedicated to getting dancers up to a reasonable level of skill - or even getting dancers up to a high skill level. That way we have a smooth progression plan for dancers. It's so easy to start learning MJ it's easy to get up to a level of competence and then ....

.. nothing

Or nearly nothing. I know some Ceroc classes offer advanced classes. Having done a few I've found that means the teaching of difficult moves. IMHO advanced dancing is mostly about how you execute the moves, how you lead, how you follow and what you do to the music that's playing.

There seems to be a school of thought amongst a minority of dancers that you can/should progress to WCS or Lindy Hop once you've proved you are a good MJer. There is an, unsaid, implication, that these dances are somehow senior or superior to MJ. This is rubbish. When you've got better at MJ you can continue to improve until you're really good.

So, my advice to MinnieM is to go to her local MJ classes, do the lesson as a woman/follower and help guys learn how to lead better

That way she will get nice dances close to home and can stop all this travelling massive distances to get a decent dance. It's what I'm doing and we are getting there but it won't happen overnight. But all the time there's the mind set that the grass is always greener in terms of more distant classes or other dancing styles the progress will be even slower for MJ. There is a certain mentality that says "Me, dance locally? I'm far too good for the people who dance round here now I'm a decent dancer - I go to London/Cheshunt/Greenwich/Hipsters/Jango/Hammersmith, etc to dance with superstar dancers A, B, C, D, etc" We'll never get superstars outside the big population centres unless someone changes that mentality - and who's more mental than me?

Rant. Moi?

*Andy McGregor* · 24th-November-2005, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

"Me, dance locally? I'm far too good for the people who dance round here now I'm a decent dancer - I go to London/Cheshunt/Greenwich/Hipsters/Jango/Hammersmith, etc to dance with superstar dancers A, B, C, D, etc"
Rant. Moi?

Andy, you went to Hipsters once or twice a week for years. You've even been known to turn up in Bristol for a nights dancing.

*Andy McGregor* · 24th-November-2005, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Andy, you went to Hipsters once or twice a week for years. You've even been know to turn up in Bristol for a nights dancing.

Yes I have, and I was wrong to neglect my local classes. There was a mind-set that said we should go to London to get great teaching and dancing. Some Tuesday nights we had over 20 Brighton dancers in Ealing!

However, I now regard the time I spent travelling those distances as part of my journey to becoming a decent dance teacher. I wouldn't be the dancer and teacher I am now if I hadn't had all those lessons from the likes of Nigel, Amir and Viktor. But now I dance down the road and absolutely love it. Our classes have built up from less than 20 on a Thursday night to over 100 and they're still growing. Most of our dancers have been dancing less than 12 months but you won't see a bouncy hand in our hall! Unless they've visited from a class down the road - but we do give special remedial lessons to those people

**David Bailey** · 24th-November-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

IMHO, WCS will be a minority dance because it's very hard to learn... But it's so hard to learn ... against that it's hard to learn

But how easy is it to learn?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Or nearly nothing. I know some Ceroc classes offer advanced classes. Having done a few I've found that means the teaching of difficult moves.

I believe that, in the London area at least, there is a market for advanced classes. To take an example, at Surbiton last night, I heard there were 80+ dancers in the advanced class (i.e. the class going on at the same time as the intermediate class in a different room).

Now, I believe you're right in that this class was about teaching difficult moves rather than excecution, interpretation, etc. But blimey, 80+, that's a lot of people wanting to know things beyond intermediate level, on a regular basis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

There seems to be a school of thought amongst a minority of dancers that you can/should progress to WCS or Lindy Hop once you've proved you are a good MJer.

Or salsa, or AT, or ballroom. Or competitions for that matter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

There is an, unsaid, implication, that these dances are somehow senior or superior to MJ. This is rubbish. When you've got better at MJ you can continue to improve until you're really good.

No partner dance is "better" than others, there are just better dancers.

*clevedonboy* · 24th-November-2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Andy, you went to Hipsters once or twice a week for years. You've even been know to turn up in Bristol for a nights dancing.

Talking to yourself again me old mucker? sign of madness innit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

There seems to be a school of thought amongst a minority of dancers that you can/should progress to WCS or Lindy Hop once you've proved you are a good MJer. There is an, unsaid, implication, that these dances are somehow senior or superior to MJ. This is rubbish. When you've got better at MJ you can continue to improve until you're really good.

Staying off topic with Mr McG - my turn ...........

I'm learning Lindy, I'm not learning it because it's a "superior" dance form to MJ - it's just a different dance form, it happens to have a structure that allows us to dance to different music (you know that nasty fast swingy stuff that people insist on playing from time to time

).

Attending Lindy Classes in Bristol with Graeme & Ann is a positive thing for dancing MJ though - there's a lot of stuff "borrowed" from Lindy in MJ & seeing the original shapes can give insight into different ways of dancing. There's also a lot of emphasis on lead & follow, very useful. And then of course there's the whole fitting your dance to the music thing (something ChrisA mentioned in another thread) combining 6 & 8 count moves fits better with the structure of dance music. The negative thing it shows though is the compromise nature of many MJ moves - removing the footwork can make some moves more difficult (honest)

I have to say that I've reached the end of the road with regularly attending MJ classes - I don't want to learn another First Move Jump variant. The big unwieldy nature of the teaching model is not designed for getting really good. I don't blame teachers for this - after all, it's what most of their customers want & I can't see anyone around here having the staying power to do a regular class aimed at advance dance technique. MJ workshops are just about all there is and they're great, so I'll be seeking those out (Like G&A's MJ into swing workshop on Sunday).

So in summary I believe that dancers who try other things aren't saying that they're too good for MJ it's more that MJ as a collective doesn't have the ambition to satisfy them as individuals.

MartinHarper · 24th-November-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

But how easy is it to learn?

Not as hard as is made out.
After three hours of large group teaching, and some freestyle practice, I can lead six moves very badly. That compares favourably to the MJ learning curve.
The difference is that, in MJ, one can lead six moves badly and claim to be an intermediate.

**Minnie M** · 24th-November-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

.......It IS a lovely dance which is great fun to do. And you can do it to music you can't MJ to. But, against that it's hard to learn, there's hardly anywhere to do it, there's hardly anywhere to learn it, there's hardly anyone who does it, etc, etc, etc.

yes it is a lovely dance

that's not true, you can easily dance MJ to WCS music - most good dancers would not have a problem there

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

.......What I would prefer to see is dancers getting really good at MJ.

I thought it was the dancers that ARE good at MJ who want to learn WCS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

.......IMHO, done at it's best MJ is just as good as WCS in terms of fun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

.......So, my advice to MinnieM is to go to her local MJ classes, do the lesson as a woman/follower and help guys learn how to lead better

hmmm..... you know I already do that Andy

maybe not as regularly as you would like, but I need my dancing fix as well as helping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

.......That way she will get nice dances close to home and can stop all this travelling massive distances to get a decent dance......

I travel for the dancing fix (see above) and not only for Modern Jive - however, your classes are very good and the dancers there are coming along really well and I will continue to come along every now again to support you and help the new dancers

Unfortunately, a lot of the local dancers are more social dancers and although you are working really hard to raise the level, it will take a while.

You don't help, as you make your classes are very relaxed and people enjoy the friendly atmospher as much as learning the dance ......... from the start they are greeted with a lovely smiling face (Sue) and a very pretty girl (McG junior) do they need to learn to dance ?????

where do you draw the line

*Andy McGregor* · 24th-November-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnie M

and a very pretty girl (McG junior)

Takes after her father - very pretty

*Lindsay* · 24th-November-2005, 07:14 PM

LH/WCS are not superior styles, they are just different styes. Ceroc is easy to learn and I think people come to a point where they want something different, and a bit more challenging. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot progress to a point in MJ that could give the top dancers in WCS/LH a run for their money. There are some fabulous MJ dancers in the UK- Nigel, Nina, Viktor, Lily, David, Kate, Will, etc. etc.

**Paul F** · 24th-November-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

......IMHO, done at it's best MJ is just as good as WCS in terms of fun.....

I had to read this a few times to see whether I understood it or not

I have to say that some of the best times (the most fun) I have had in MJ is when I was a beginner/improver learning moves and experimenting. It was great.

WCS is definately not always fun.

Quote:

27th-September-2004, 06:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
Minnie M Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Hove Actually Posts: 6,666 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1996	Lead or Follow I can lead the 6 basic moves in West Coast Swing, WCS is such a lovely dance however quite difficult to learn. I have been 'trying' to learn this dance for many years, mainly because I don't get much practice. Would love this dance to really take off so I will have lots and lots of partners to dance with. Although I am an average WCS dancer I am more experienced than most of the followers taking lessons at the moment, therefore, whenever there are beginner classes I help out by 'leading' as there are normally extra women. IMO this helps the followers as I know what they are experiencing - but thinking again, would I be more helpful being a follower so the leaders get the benifit of my experience. __________________ --ooOoo-- Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982) Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928. That date is recognized as her official birthday.

27th-September-2004, 10:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
Daisy Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: AUSTRALIA Posts: 397 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 128	Re: Lead or Follow Have to agree with you Minnie. Have been doing a few WCS classes recently and I'm loving it. Such a beautiful dance to watch when being done well. Can't wait to do some more classes next w/end in Woking. Paul Warden took the workshop I attended yesterday at Bisley. He is such a great teacher as well as a fabulous dancer. There doesn't seem to be an established WCS scene in the UK yet so it is just emerging. It's a great time to get involved........at the ground floor. Now the only way is UP!

28th-September-2004, 08:44 AM	#6 (permalink)
Minnie M Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Hove Actually Posts: 6,666 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1996	Re: Lead or Follow Wow ! I am so please there is such an interest in WCS - we have been trying to get it established here for about 6 years now All thanks to the amazing Lily & David B, without their inspiration it would have died over here years ago They are both such great role models - and now we have Paul Warden, who has captured the look of the American professionals and doesn't that look good Have to say I still prefer David's lead If anyone followers would like some help with the basic moves, I am happy to lead you for practice OR any of the leads want to practice PLEASE ask me to dance - I am happy to be WCS taxi dancer if it helps. Hopefully I will see some of you on Saturday at Woking PS: If anyone wants to know more about WCS classes etc., please PM me __________________ --ooOoo-- Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982) Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928. That date is recognized as her official birthday.

24th-November-2005, 02:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
Andy McGregor Commercial Operator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sussex by the Sea Posts: 7,140 Rep Power: 5 Reputation Total: 1570	Re: Lead or Follow I've been thinking about WCS. I've done a dozen lessons but do them so infrequently. By the next time I do a lesson I end up remembering the names of the moves but not much else. IMHO, WCS will be a minority dance because it's very hard to learn relative to Modern Jive. It's often tried out by modern jivers looking for something new. But it's so hard to learn relative to MJ a lot of guys are put off going back. It IS a lovely dance which is great fun to do. And you can do it to music you can't MJ to. But, against that it's hard to learn, there's hardly anywhere to do it, there's hardly anywhere to learn it, there's hardly anyone who does it, etc, etc, etc. What I would prefer to see is dancers getting really good at MJ. IMHO, done at it's best MJ is just as good as WCS in terms of fun: done at it's worst, MJ is dreadful. What we need are better MJ schools dedicated to getting dancers up to a reasonable level of skill - or even getting dancers up to a high skill level. That way we have a smooth progression plan for dancers. It's so easy to start learning MJ it's easy to get up to a level of competence and then .... .. nothing Or nearly nothing. I know some Ceroc classes offer advanced classes. Having done a few I've found that means the teaching of difficult moves. IMHO advanced dancing is mostly about how you execute the moves, how you lead, how you follow and what you do to the music that's playing. There seems to be a school of thought amongst a minority of dancers that you can/should progress to WCS or Lindy Hop once you've proved you are a good MJer. There is an, unsaid, implication, that these dances are somehow senior or superior to MJ. This is rubbish. When you've got better at MJ you can continue to improve until you're really good. So, my advice to MinnieM is to go to her local MJ classes, do the lesson as a woman/follower and help guys learn how to lead better That way she will get nice dances close to home and can stop all this travelling massive distances to get a decent dance. It's what I'm doing and we are getting there but it won't happen overnight. But all the time there's the mind set that the grass is always greener in terms of more distant classes or other dancing styles the progress will be even slower for MJ. There is a certain mentality that says "Me, dance locally? I'm far too good for the people who dance round here now I'm a decent dancer - I go to London/Cheshunt/Greenwich/Hipsters/Jango/Hammersmith, etc to dance with superstar dancers A, B, C, D, etc" We'll never get superstars outside the big population centres unless someone changes that mentality - and who's more mental than me? Rant. Moi? __________________ “Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius-and a lot of courage-to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein

24th-November-2005, 07:14 PM	#16 (permalink)
Lindsay Commercial Operator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 601 Rep Power: 3 Reputation Total: 67	Re: Lead or Follow LH/WCS are not superior styles, they are just different styes. Ceroc is easy to learn and I think people come to a point where they want something different, and a bit more challenging. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot progress to a point in MJ that could give the top dancers in WCS/LH a run for their money. There are some fabulous MJ dancers in the UK- Nigel, Nina, Viktor, Lily, David, Kate, Will, etc. etc.