Teaching Advanced Modern Jive - HELP NEEDED

[Gus]

Various events have given me cause to think over how we teach Modern Jive. The simplistic model that is commonly in use ('Ceroc' model) meets its aims excellently .. i.e.: make dance nights readily accessible to non-dancers, provide supportive environment, teach basic moves, makes franchisees money. Therein lies the rub. the Ceroc model is primarily a commercial model, with dance instruction being secondary. This is not a criticism, its an observation. The problem arises when we look at developing MJ as a dance form and MJ dancers as 'proper' dancers.

The fact is that few people involved in teaching MJ dance are 'dancers'. i.e. classically trained. I'm only aware of a few. e.g. George (ex-Ceroc HQ), Sue Freeman, Dan Baines, Nina, Amir (apologies for those omitted). To expect a non-dancer to somehow acquire true dance teacher expertise and teaching models from within is asking a lot ... and I think that MJ market is now sophisticated enough to require a more sophisticated dance teaching approach. Currently, I dont think that the Big Boys feel commercial pressure for this development. However, as Hipsters has shown, there is niche that needs to be addressed. From conversations with friends in my own area there is a demand but how to move things on is still open to debate.

I'm not, and never will be, a 'dancer' but it occurs to me that one way forward for teachers like myself is to develop an approach based on cognitive models/theory and apply that to the MJ dance theory that we already know. Given that MJ does tend to attract a fair amount on professionals I was wondering of there were any dancers out there with some experience in learning/cognitive models and theory who would like to share any theories or reference sites that may be useful in developing this approach. I would also be very gratefull for anyone with formal dance teacher experience who could suggest any teaching models which are different to current MJ teaching models.

All contributions would be gratefully received.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Gus

Therein lies the rub. the Ceroc model is primarily a commercial model, with dance instruction being secondary. This is not a criticism, its an observation.

Just out of interest (and this isn't a criticism, just an observation), how do you think that differs from any other dance teaching that goes on. I doubt that there are many other forms of dance taught anywhere, where the teachers are doing it competely altruistically.

I bet if you wanted to get Robert Cordoba, or Jordan Frisbee, or any of the other 'greats' of dancing to come teach you, or for you, the first question would be 'How much'. I've heard some huge sums of money being mentioned in terms of getting some of the best ballroom teachers/competition winners to give a workshop.

I don't think that the fact that any dance organisation in any dance style is a commercial business has any effect on the teaching. At least, not in a professional organisation. Isn't that just the way the world in general works?

Trampy

PS. I know that I'm just picking up part of the post. I'm obviously not qualified to answer the rest of what you had to say. Although, should you get responses from people that are, I'd be interested in reading them.

[CJ]

I'm not qualified to comment either, but if you REALLY need help I know a great therapist.

Admittedly, she's not too altruistic either when you consider her hourly rate

[RogerR]

I've seen advanced classes come and go since James teaching at Busby's. They are constructive and devisive in equal measure, cos there's always the admission selection process, - not usually based on ability!!

I'm still not sure that there is Advanced MJ, To facilitate the achievable teaching model MJ had all the advanced-ish bits taken away.

Advanced Dancing is another thing, It starts when people start to consider their partner and their dance space and the music, and it feels sooo GOOD even doing the basic moves well, the lead and the follow and the sharing a good dance. The people who show this most, usually have a greater physical and spacial awareness due to prior dance training in another maybee unrelated genre or from a form of martial arts

[Gus]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I'm still not sure that there is Advanced MJ, To facilitate the achievable teaching model MJ had all the advanced-ish bits taken away.

I seem to remember being told that Jigoro Kano founded Judo by starting with Ju-Jitsu and taking out all the lethal strikes ... leaving behind a denuded martial art. Maybe MJ can be regarded like that to an extent but there must be a way of re-introducing the bits that have previously been left out.

Originally Posted by RogerR

Advanced Dancing is another thing, It starts when people start to consider their partner and their dance space and the music, and it feels sooo GOOD even doing the basic moves well, the lead and the follow and the sharing a good dance. The people who show this most, usually have a greater physical and spacial awareness due to prior dance training in another maybee unrelated genre or from a form of martial arts

Quite so ... its how to educate dancers to be able to interpret, move and lead towards this goal that is the aim. As you say, the current teaching model isnt up to it and never was intended to do so.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Gus

Quite so ... its how to educate dancers to be able to interpret, move and lead towards this goal that is the aim. As you say, the current teaching model isnt up to it and never was intended to do so.

UGGG ... I HATE having to have a go at something I've written but that last sentence came out totaly wrong OF COURSE the current MJ model teaches movements, leading etc. What I was trying to say was that there are limitations from trying to teach such things from stage ... especially to a horde of differentially skilled dnacers in just 30+minutes. Does that sound better?

[RogerR]

There are some milestones in teaching partner dance. One is when the Girls realise that while they may own or direct a large multinational company by day, on the dancefloor they may have to follow sometimes, another is when the boys realise that the lead directs the action but doesnt supply the power. There are hundreds more and the teacher's dilemma is to keep the interest of the quicker learners while bringing the slower ones up to speed.

[Magic Hans]

Originally Posted by RogerR

It starts when people start to consider their partner and their dance space and the music, and it feels sooo GOOD even doing the basic moves well, the lead and the follow and the sharing a good dance. The people who show this most, usually have a greater physical and spacial awareness due to prior dance training in another maybe unrelated genre or from a form of martial arts

..... but is that all??

Originally Posted by Gus

Quite so ... its how to educate dancers to be able to interpret, move and lead towards this goal that is the aim. ...

What is this target? How can it be described?

For me, it's unfettered, free self expression through movement. The music motivates (or inspires) the expression.

a) I must be confident in my ability to move, and express physically ... doubt closes this down. Authentic vulnerability, imho enhances.

b) I must be motivated (through emotion) and inspired (in spirit).

That is, why I believe martial artists, in particular can shine .... through their exploration of their spirit.

.... anyone ever come across 5 rhythms dance (Gabrielle Roth) at all?

[RogerR]

As style progresses then individuality comes through. Nina, Rena and Roger Chin are great dancers but such different styles.

[bigdjiver]

The furniture flatpack comes with the components, and the assembly instructions. You have to supply the screwdriver and the labour, working your way through the instructions. When it comes to painting it to fit your decor to your taste, you are on your own.
The advanced teacher can give you the instruction, and additionally broaden your mind with the possibilities. You can make your choices at random, by trial and error, or by analysis, but in the end, it is down to you.

[MartinHarper]

This post is nothing to do with cognitive theory - my apologies.

There are limitations from trying to teach such things from stage ... especially to a horde of differentially skilled dnacers in just 30+minutes.

There are limitations, but I still think a lot more could be done. For example, the various JazzJive teachers I've learnt from do a lot better in these respects than the various Ceroc teachers I've learnt from.

One thing they do is to talk a lot more about leading versus anticipating. Often they'll demo the difference between the same move when it's led, and when it's back-led.. This is done in a light-hearted fashion ("ooh, you're so manly", as the girl demos how to backlead yourself into a double spin), but I think the message gets across.

Another thing they do is to give the guys some options. Eg: they tell us that we can lead a sway, or we can lead a return, and it's our choice. This helps me a lot in learning to lead a move. Because there are only two or three options, it's something of a middle ground between dancing a fixed routine and dancing freestyle.

They also spend more time explaining the mechanics of leading a move, and the timing of the lead. I've done intermediate classes in Ceroc where the teacher doesn't mention how to lead a single beat of the entire routine. By contrast, in JazzJive I'll get (not all at once!) an explanation for most steps in a move - which part of my body am I leading with (front of the left forearm), which part of the lady's body (small of the back), what beat (just before the "and" after the second beat), etc, etc.

This is all done from stage, with (eg in intermediate 1) a mix of dancers with three months experience to three years experience. The classes are perhaps about half the size of a typical Ceroc class - don't know if that's significant. I'm sure the limitations Gus refers to are very real... but perhaps they're overplayed. Seems to me there's a lot you can do from stage, if you want to.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

For example, the various JazzJive teachers I've learnt from do a lot better in these respects than the various Ceroc teachers I've learnt from.

Ahem ... I think I'll leave it one of the current CTA instructors toi give a fuller rebuttal ... BUT I would like to say that from what I've seen taught by current CTA/MJ instructors ... well I'd be hard pushed to see how they could communicate more in only 30 minutes ... and I would say most of what you have described is already done by the better teachers on the circuit. I dont know if the overall standard at the Jazzjive lessons is significantly higher than a standard MJ lesson, but if you have a class where some of the attendees have only been dancing 6 weeks, I think it would be difficult to make the teaching more complex (IMHO).

Gordy ... about time you defended the honour of the CTA again?

[MartinHarper]

I dont know if the overall standard at the Jazzjive lessons is significantly higher than a standard MJ lesson

Certainly not: there is a lot that I feel my local Ceroc classes do much better than my local JazzJive classes. I'd be hard pushed to make an objective decision on which was better overall.

most of what you have described is already done by the better teachers on the circuit

Of course - I can only comment on those classes I've been to, which is but a drop in the MJ ocean.

[Gadget]

I think that the "intermediate" class does exactly what it says on the tin: it caters for intermediate dancers - everyone from just coming out of a begginer class and upwards. {The "advanced dancers" take as much/little from the class as they can - but seldom exactly what is taught from the stage.}

Perhaps I'm just lucky in the teachers I've been taught by; but normally there are a few gems of leading/following wisdom interwoven with the lesson.

If you want to study body position, leading techniques, punctuating your dancing, timing, rhythm, .... then you go to a workshop where the teacher has more time, less pupils and can go into greater detail about specifics.

[Gordon J Pownall]

It's a bit of a bugger this one...

I'm afraid that I can only speak for 'moi' as opposed to the many 'toi' out there.


Lessons / classes at intermediate level that I teach purely depend upon the dancers who are there.

Anyone who has guested at another venue will know how difficult it can be to pitch an intermediate class at the right level - enough intricacy to keep the more able dancers excited and yet not that difficult that people new to intermediate classes feel totally phased out.

This is where I see a door of opportunity opening. How do you make 'easy' moves (and yes it's all relative) exciting, fun and interesting...?

For me it's simple, show the class what can be done with it....this means focussing on the style and character of the move, offering options for men and women to expand their expression of the move.

For example, a first move can look soooooo much different just by both dancers exaggerating the twist out on beat 3 with a ronde....

Eye contact can make a huge difference in the feel of a move and the way in which it is expressed to the music.

It is simple things like this that can turn a fairly plain intermediate class into a MasterClass - and it can appeal to all experience levels of dancers.

Getting back to basics, lead and follow is an integral part of dance. Ceroc goes for the quick fix achievement angle (attend one beginners class and the majority of people leave having felt as though they have achieved something).

Of course arguably this could be at the cost of forming a foundation of basic dance skills - lead / follow / posture / frame / footwork such as is taught in ballroom and latin.

We are, as teachers, all up against the clock and ultimately it is an individual call on the night.

Do we teach two moves but sh*tloads of the basics as above, or four moves at the cost of not really addressing the foundations of good dancing.

A balance between the two can usually be achieved however sometimes, people just want moves and other times they want something else completely.

I think in the UK we are lucky in that we have a whole range of dance organisations and privateers who can offer all of the above and to a very high standard.

How's that Gus...?

[CJ]

5.9 from the Russian Judge

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Gordon J Pownall

How's that Gus...?

Well said Sir.

Not sure if I agree/understand what you are saying about us being able to teach 'advanced jive' through the standard class formula though?

I'm SURE this has been raised before ... but is a standard class night the right place for advanced jive lessons full-stop. I'm not convinced it is but I'm more than ready to be proven wrong. I'm looking forward to hearing how Scott's idea works out and would like to get the chance to see some of the advanced Ceroc nights... though they only seem to be 'down sarth' at the moment. Don't any Midlands clubs do anything of this ilk?

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Gordon J Pownall

This is where I see a door of opportunity opening. How do you make 'easy' moves (and yes it's all relative) exciting, fun and interesting...?

Yup. I saw that door too. But from a slightly different angle.

You're approaching it in reference to Advanced classes - however, what I'm intending to do is use it to form an "Improvers" class. The main purpose is to bridge that well-known gap between Beginners and Intermediates, by providing moves that are easy to learn & freestyle, and by concentrating on the concepts of lead & follow and musicality. Mostly, it'll be variations on beginner moves, with useful Intermediate moves (like catapults, etc) introduced most weeks.

I hope it'll turn out to be fun & interesting - but, then, as my target market is less experienced than yours, it'll hopefully be easier to keep them engaged & interested. We'll see. We start next Thursday in earnest (but we do have launch party this week! ). I'll let you know how it goes.

[Yliander]

Originally Posted by Gus

I'm SURE this has been raised before ... but is a standard class night the right place for advanced jive lessons full-stop. I'm not convinced it is but I'm more than ready to be proven wrong.

I have to say that I don't think a standard class is the right place for advanced modern jive lessons.

to me advanced means really extending myself - working with a partner that I really trust - and laughing lots when it all goes pear shaped.

the things I would be looking for in an advanced class - no rotation, personal correction, time to focus on my weakness, and ask for feedback - just aren't able to be supplied by a standard class.

If I wanted to learn advanced Modern Jive - I would look for a workshop or arrange a private lesson.