Dance Competition

[Gus]

Nothing like being a bit controversial to get some comment flowing so ........

There will soon be a Ceroc Scotland Competition (we all hope).

Much comment has flowed in the aftermath of the Blackpool champs and probably will after the Ceroc Champs .. but the (perceived) success or failure of the competition will be based on a few key factors;
MUSIC, JUDGES, ELIGIBILITY

MUSIC
Should it be chart or 'classic', fast or slow

JUDGES
Ceroc, other Modern Jive organsiations, other dances, Teachers or punters?

ELIGIBILITY
Should teachers be allowed?

Its the last one I'm most intersted in (for obvious reasons). First of all there is no direct correlation between being a teacher and being a good dancer. Howveer, if the competiton wa swon by Ceroc teachers would this destroy and credibility of impartiality?

Answers please

[Bill]

The issue of teachers competing has been raised several times and amongst those who I have heard discuss it there seems to be a concensus that there should be 3 levels in London and the likes of Blackpool :

1. Intermediate
2. Advanced
3. 'Open'

No-one can be told to go into a particular category and there are usually some excellent dancers in the Intermediate section who could probably compete in the Advanced.

As you said in a previous meesgae - there are those who would welcome the chance to compete against the likes of Viktor but he is so far ahead of almost everyone else that you may as well give him and Lydia first prize and get everyone else to compete for second place.

As you also said, many teachers are clearly not the best dancers so maybe barring teachers just gives these dancers even more chance to win ! BUT............ the advantage for teachers, especially Ceroc is that they have been 'trained' and know all the moves propely and can adopt a 'Ceroc' style. Others will disagree but I think there is a particular style although once they have passed many teachers will then develop their own particular style.

I also think there would be much more prestige for the winners if they competed against their peers rather than normal 'punters'. Can you imagine folk like yourself Gus competing alongside Viktor & Lydia, Nigel& Nina etc.... Who on earth would judge that ?????

Doubt if I've answered your question but maybe others will have a go.

[Gus]

Bill,

good call ... BUT .. if you look at the better Ceroc teacher/dancers they all break the 'Ceroc rukes'. I'm sorry but I don't know the Scottish teachers very well but if you watch Viktor, H, Miktor, Emma etc.. you will see huge diffrenece between what they teach and what they dance.

On the other hand, where the teachers do have an advantage is that they have received excellent coaching from Ceroc HQ and have 500 official moves at their disposal. Also, because of teh dance circuit they tend to move in, they get better exposure to other good dancers and the opportuntity to leran form non-Ceroc teachers.

Maybe it all comes back to what dance competition is about; is it to laud the 'best of the best', to be a showcase of talent, to inspire club members to performance, or just to have a good blast and an excuse to get loads of firendly people together for a dance. DUNNO ... probably a bit of all the above.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
good call ... BUT .. if you look at the better Ceroc teacher/dancers they all break the 'Ceroc rukes'. I'm sorry but I don't know the Scottish teachers very well but if you watch Viktor, H, Miktor, Emma etc.. you will see huge diffrenece between what they teach and what they dance.

Teaching and dancing, as you mentionned earlier, is a very different thing. You could be a very good dancer and a lousy teacher (and vice versa). Being able to teach means understanding what your class is able to grasp and taking them to the next level by explaining very simply what can be fairly complex or scary for new people. Being a good dancer is all about you and your partner... Rules are broken on the dance floor, and up to a point, this is what Intermediate / Style workshops teach. Once you understand the basic rules, you are able to break some of them for a more exciting / challenging experience on the dance floor.

[Maybe it all comes back to what dance competition is about; is it to laud the 'best of the best', to be a showcase of talent, to inspire club members to performance, or just to have a good blast and an excuse to get loads of firendly people together for a dance. DUNNO ... probably a bit of all the above.

I am definitely partial to the last one: to get loads of friendly people together for a dance.
This is what I understand Ceroc to be about. Of course the best dancers out there will help to shape all that, but I hope will not be putting off new dancers.
I suspect I am still ambivalent towards competitions... I completely recommend the Ceroc Championships in Hammersmith, not because they are a competition, but mostly because they are indeed a brilliant opportunity to get 1500 Cerocers together for 12 hours, and generally huge fun for anyone present.

Franck.

[John S]

Originally posted by Franck
I suspect I am still ambivalent towards competitions... I completely recommend the Ceroc Championships in Hammersmith, not because they are a competition, but mostly because they are indeed a brilliant opportunity to get 1500 Cerocers together for 12 hours, and generally huge fun for anyone present.

Franck.

I think it's good that there is this discussion on the philosophy of competition, judging etc. I could be wrong, but the more I read the more I realise that what I really want is a "Celebration" more than a "Competition" per se.

I tend to agree with Franck - Hammersmith (and Blackpool) are fun - it's really good to see the top dancers, the showcase acts etc, but the best part is meeting and spending a day (or more) with other Ceroc dancers, and feeling part of a larger dance community than just the local venues.

So I guess a balance has to be struck - personally I would like the Scottish event to somehow have its own flavour and style, rather than just be a pale imitation of the other established events. Difficult - maybe kilts should be compulsory?

[Jayne]

Originally posted by John S


maybe kilts should be compulsory?

so, err, when's the competition???

Jayne

[Scot]

The exact date will be confirmed shortly but we are estimating Late Aug/ early Sept.

We do not intend to advertise it at venues until after the London Champs. For Scotland the event will be a Charity event.

Cheers

Scot

[DavidB]

I like going to competitions, both as a competitor and a spectator. But I like the event to be more than just a competition - I want to meet some different people, have some good dances, learn something new, watch a good competition and if I compete, not drop my wife!

From a purely personal point of view, I would love to see the following:

- A division that has as few restrictions as possible - like the Showcase in the London comp, where the only restriction is the time limit.

- An American-style Dance With A Stranger, where you change partners during the heats, and the leaders & followers are judged separately. You only get marked as a couple in the final.

- More than one competition for teachers/champions. eg an Invitational Dance with a Stranger, where you try to get some of the best dancers in the country to compete. Two reasons: it should be good to watch, and it should mean there are more really good dancers around for the social dancing.

- Several different prizes to be awarded per division as well as the top 3 - eg best Scottish couple, best non-teacher, best club etc.

- Consistent entry fees and prizes. (ie not like the London competition!)

- Workshops - It's a long way to go, so make it more than just a competition, or a dance.

- A variety of music, and both local and guest DJs.

- A chance to dance between each division, and afterwards.

- Not just one day?? Eg Friday evening to Sunday afternoon?

But ultimately it is going to be a Scottish competition, so it should be for all you dancers in Scotland to decide.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
- An American-style Dance With A Stranger, where you change partners during the heats, and the leaders & followers are judged separately. You only get marked as a couple in the final.

This category has always been my favourite, dance with a stranger / Lucky Dip / etc...

However, I am not sure why you would want leaders and followers judged separately ?
In my view, the whole point of this category is that you are judged on your ability to adapt to a totally new partner, being able to create magic without preparation / expectation is exactly what it's all about...
This category shows pretty quickly people who show little awareness of their partner and either dance with and for themselves mostly or are so used to dancing with the same partner that they have become lazy in leading / following...

Of course luck will play a significant part but overall, I think that we should judge the whole couple from the start...

Franck.

[John S]

Originally posted by Franck
Of course luck will play a significant part but overall, I think that we should judge the whole couple from the start...

Franck.

I agree - it does nothing for your self-confidence if you get thrown out in the 1st round for being a poor leader/follower while your partner progresses. At least if you're judged as a couple you share the glory or the ignominy!

Anyway, it's all supposed to be fun rather than serious cut-throat competition, so let's not get too intense about it!

Some of DavidB's other ideas were good, though.

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
I like going to competitions, both as a competitor and a spectator. But I like the event to be more than just a competition - I want to meet some different people, have some good dances, learn something new, watch a good competition and if I compete, not drop my wife!

Indeed, I am definitely with you on that one...
I find that simply by watching the huge variety of dancers at big events, I get inspired to try new moves / styles etc... It is like getting a booster jag of enthusiasm and style.

From a purely personal point of view, I would love to see the following:

- A division that has as few restrictions as possible - like the Showcase in the London comp, where the only restriction is the time limit.

Yes. You need something where people can express themselves as freely as possible.

- More than one competition for teachers/champions. eg an Invitational Dance with a Stranger, where you try to get some of the best dancers in the country to compete. Two reasons: it should be good to watch, and it should mean there are more really good dancers around for the social dancing.

I am not too sure about this one, as it pre-supposes quite a lot. Who are those best dancers? What are the criteria? How will some people feel when they realise that they have not been asked (I am crushed already )

- Several different prizes to be awarded per division as well as the top 3 - eg best Scottish couple, best non-teacher, best club etc.

- Consistent entry fees and prizes. (ie not like the London competition!)

Hmm, the issue of prizes is important, and would have to be looked at carefully, however, since the Scottish Champs will be for Charity, I would hope that prizes would be mostly nominal in value (a bit like the Oscars... Maybe we should have a golden kilted figure to give out

- Workshops - It's a long way to go, so make it more than just a competition, or a dance.

Agreed, that would make sense.

- A variety of music, and both local and guest DJs.

- A chance to dance between each division, and afterwards.

Variety in music styles and pace is very important, and tracks for each category should be well thought out to allow dancers maximum opportunity to express their style.

- Not just one day?? Eg Friday evening to Sunday afternoon?

This might be quite difficult from a practical point of view, however, maybe there should be a Freestyle night the evening before to allow everyone to warm up for the following day...

But ultimately it is going to be a Scottish competition, so it should be for all you dancers in Scotland to decide.

David

Thanks a lot for your input David (and Gus etc...) this debate is really interesting and a lot of really good ideas are being put forward.

Cheers,

Franck.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Franck


Hmm, the issue of prizes is important, and would have to be looked at carefully, however, since the Scottish Champs will be for Charity, I would hope that prizes would be mostly nominal in value (a bit like the Oscars... Maybe we should have a golden kilted figure to give out

Back in the days when I did a few comps I went to one that gave out certificates and medals instead of trophies/prizes. Our team thought that it was a great idea (much jangling of medals went on in the team coach on the way home... ) I've still got mine tucked away somewhere...

Jayne

PS to Stuart - see, no comment about "golden kilted figures":p

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck

In my view, the whole point of this category is that you are judged on your ability to adapt to a totally new partner, being able to create magic without preparation / expectation is exactly what it's all about...
This category shows pretty quickly people who show little awareness of their partner and either dance with and for themselves mostly or are so used to dancing with the same partner that they have become lazy in leading / following...

Exactly. But at the moment, as soon as the couples are drawn, a lot of them disappear and start working out their moves. By the time the final comes along, many will have had over 20 dances together. Unfortunately it's not exactly 'Dance With A Stranger' any more.
If you drew a new partner every time, it becomes a lead and follow competition, not 'how many of your moves can I learn in a day'.

Originally posted by John S

it does nothing for your self-confidence if you get thrown out in the 1st round for being a poor leader/follower while your partner progresses. At least if you're judged as a couple you share the glory or the ignominy!

Good point - I'd never thought of it like that. You could just draw one new partner each round, and still be judged as a couple. It doesn't have to take too long either - just line everyone up as they were in the last round, and roll a dice. That is how many leaders move down - just like rotating in a class.

Of all the divisions, Dance with a Stranger is supposed to be the most fun and the least serious. It should be the nearest competition to social dancing - ie asking someone you have never met for a dance, and them being judged how well you do.

David

[Jayne]

Originally posted by DavidB

Exactly. But at the moment, as soon as the couples are drawn, a lot of them disappear and start working out their moves. By the time the final comes along, many will have had over 20 dances together. Unfortunately it's not exactly 'Dance With A Stranger' any more.
If you drew a new partner every time, it becomes a lead and follow competition, not 'how many of your moves can I learn in a day'.

Another competition story...

I did ballroom comps and there was usually a sequence dance competition. We'd all be paired up randomly then get on the dance floor. Sequence dances are danced in a circle so once we were all on the floor the ladies all had to move round by x partners, with x changing in each round so you never knew who you might end up with. Obviously with ceroc you don't dance in a circle, but I'm sure you could improvise!

Jayne

[Gus]

Good Debate!

Re Dance with a Stranger ... I vote for the view that it should be fun ... but the realities of life are that people will try to be the best to win .... but then again thats what competitions are about.

A related issue is that of prize. If you're competing for hard cash then a more mercenary attitude can creep in. If its 'just' a medal ... then a little of the true spirit of the event is more likely to survive.

Re Prizes ... if it was cash, how much would be enough? For the Blackpool champs I know at least 1 couple who spend many hundreds on coaching and costumes (and came away with zip). even for myself, if you add up how much it cost me and my partner just to meet up for 5 sessions (we live a couple of hours away from each other) it probably cost a fair few bob. the point is that to make it justifiable from a cost perspective ... you would have to offer HUGE money ... so why bother?

A token amount would probably be nice, but the real attraction would be the title ... who wouldn't like to be known as the Open Scottish Champ ... has a nice ring to it. If you are serious about getting the good dancers from London and the Midlands up, it would be by the attraction of the title, the perception of the organisation and the arrangements for accomodation.

Fair Comment?

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Good Debate!
The real attraction would be the title ... who wouldn't like to be known as the Open Scottish Champ ... has a nice ring to it. If you are serious about getting the good dancers from London and the Midlands up, it would be by the attraction of the title, the perception of the organisation and the arrangements for accomodation.

Fair Comment?

Fair comment indeed.
I suspect that with Competitions, it is a matter of establishing yourself, and you need to build credibility and a reputation over a few years...
This means that the first time needs to be so good we will have to organize another one...
Travel up to Scotland is reasonably cheap these days, thanks to Easyjet / Ryanair / etc. and There are a few Travelodges who offer competitive prices (certainly cheaper than most London hotels
It is now very easy to come up for a week-end (the same way that many Scottish Cerocers are now in a position to go to London for the Champs at a reasonable price.
I would also hope that we could attract competitors / visitors from the rest of Europe (Germany ?) or the world...

I am confident that Scotland can put up a very good event, we have the talent, dancers and as mentionned in other threads, the Scottish welcome would definitely add to the attraction.
Maybe there should also be a kilted category, for best use of a kilt on the dance floor...
Maybe Jayne would like to judge the event?

Franck.

[Gus]

I like the way that people are talking about the Scottish Champs ... more of a coming together to PARTY rather than seeing 'who is the best'

Taking the view that "If you tell them, they will come" [apologies to Waynes World 2 for the quote] your next challenge is spreading the world. From what little I know of the polotics in your neck of the woods, it seems that Ceroc and LeRoc dominate so communication should be easy. In the North West its very much more fragmented ... and possibly so in the South West. The trick is seeing if the independant organsiations will eneter into the spirit of the the event and pass the good news.

[Bill]

I've been discussing the idea of a Scottish Championship with a few folk and the only negative comments have been that in August Edinburgh will be positively packed with tourists and accommodation might be diffciult to come by if folk don't book early.

The Festival and the Fringe are on and from my own experience in the past I've found it very difficult to get a hotel or even a B&B in August so unless details are available very soon many potential visitors/dancers might have problems.

The only other issue is that August is generally a busy time and the schools go back in the middle of the month so a lot of folk might be on holiday at the start on the month but the English schools go back later.

At the end of the moth there is Beach Boogie and on the 17th is the Le Rock Champs in Bristol. Is a venue and a date now fixed ???

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Is a venue and a date now fixed ???

Not yet AFAIK. Though August or September are the most likely.

Just as a quick side note, I have now confirmed the date for the BIG 10th Anniversary Party in Glasgow.

I have booked a large venue and I am still working on the details, but the date will be: Saturday 23rd November 2002.

This is quite a big deal for Ceroc in Scotland as 10 years is a significant milestone.
Both myself and Jean (who started the first night together 10 years ago) will be there teaching a guest class, there also should be a band a plenty of exciting things going on.
The main thing though, I hope is that we will get as many people from all around Scotland as possible, as indeed the Cerocers make the night.

So keep the above date in your diaries, there will be further announcements as details fall into place.

Franck.

[John S]

Originally posted by Franck


Just as a quick side note, I have now confirmed the date for the BIG 10th Anniversary Party in Glasgow.

I have booked a large venue and I am still working on the details, but the date will be: Saturday 23rd November 2002.

Franck,

I guess at some time you will put it on the Ceroc Scotland website front page, but as well, maybe you should start a new thread with the event and date as a title, so that it's immediately obvious to any Forum readers.