Would you rather dance with a good lead(/follower), or a stylish dancer?

[Gadget]

OK, so you would rather have both

I have discovered that while I am a good lead, I don't have any style.
Don't get me wrong - I have a few stylish moves and some flourishes that may {on a good day} be considered stylish, but the 'core' of my dancing is a bit flat to look at just now.
I can lead the ladies very well and it is a good dance - it just does not look anywhere near as good as it feels.
:sigh:

So to the two extremes:
Would you rather have a dance that other people watched and cheered - even if you thought it nothing special.
Or
Would you rather have a dance that you came out of thinking "wow", but no-one took any notice of.
?

[Lory]

I voted 'for me' but really, I would have liked it to say, for me AND my partner!

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by Lory

I voted 'for me' but really, I would have liked it to say, for me AND my partner!

The people I would like to think I dance for, in decreasing order of importance:

1. The person I'm dancing with at the time.
2. Me.
3. Other dancers on the floor that I might collide with.
4. Anyone watching.

Could argue about the order of 2 & 3 I suppose - maybe say they're joint 2nd...

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

1. The person I'm dancing with at the time.
2. Me.
3. Other dancers on the floor that I might collide with.
4. Anyone watching.

Could argue about the order of 2 & 3 I suppose - maybe say they're joint 2nd...

......

That said, out of the fabbest followers I enjoy dancing with most, there isn't a single one of them that isn't very stylish as well.

Chris

[Graham]

I don't agree with the premise that if you choose style it's because you're out to impress an audience. As a lead, if I dance with a good follower who isn't very stylish, then the onus is on me to do things to make us both have fun (and/or impress anyone watching if I felt so inclined). If I dance with someone very stylish who is not such a good follower, then both having fun and impressing an audience become much more a shared responsibility between the two of us.

[drathzel]

A good lead, as i am only a beginner and need all the help i can get!

[Magic Hans]

For me, Style is the result of individual expression. Any movement that simply stems from feet, or hands is cold and expressionless.

I totally love it when anyone expresses freely from the heart/soul, using their body as a physical tool for that expression! Love it or hate it, what others make of that style is a different kettle of fish!

If they can (in my case) follow, that's a bonus! ... we can have real fun when stuff goes 'wrong'!

Unfortunately, I will generaly struggle to express myself until I am confident in what I am doing [MJing, and leading, in this case] .... I feel that this is probably the case for most.

We're not wonderfully expressive, here in Britain, I learned a great deal about self expression at a week-long actors workshop, and an intensive weekend called "The Mastery"!!!

Originally Posted by Gadget

I have discovered that while I am a good lead, I don't have any style.

As for that!! I quite simply don't believe you!!!!! Maybe I'm splitting hairs [ .... probably more likely mis-interpreting your use of style!!]

Everyone (imho) dances with their own unique style. Initially when learning that style incorporates nervousness!!!! .... which gradually transposes to confidence as we become more accustomed to what we're learning.

.... am I in the minority on this one??

!an

[Andreas]

I prefer somebody who does not dislocate my shoulders when she decides to her stuff all the time. But in having said that, I do also love girls that know how to strutt their stuff when they are given the time.

But all that is only as important as long as she dances with me and for me as opposed to with and for the audience.

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Andreas

But all that is only as important as long as he dances with me and for me as opposed to with and for the audience.

[foxylady]

I love to 'give it some' , I love to 'shake my ass' , I love to 'work it' but I don't do it for an audience, I do it for me and the fella I'm dancin' with............. there's no vote for that.....


But the lead that allows me to give it some style wins over the lead that restricts my style (and play) time, every time !!



Foxy

[MartinHarper]

I "style" for me, for my partner, and for the music, not necessarilly in that order. Oh, and because I can't help it. I don't style for some non-existent audience, and I can't think of any local dancers who I could pick out as dancing for the audience.
I also feel that a relaxed, laid back style is a style in itself. I'm thinking of one couple in particular, who I think look fantastic: they do simple moves, calmly and effortlessly, and their movements are somehow subtle without being wishy-washy.

In my partners... I like a variety. Lots of people with lots of different styles, and lots of different levels of styling. That's one of the things that makes MJ fun for me.
As for good following skills... actually, I'm not wildly fussed. I like my partner to be leadable enough that I don't have to heavily concentrate on leading her. Beyond that level, it doesn't affect my enjoyment that much, though it might affect hers.

[jockey]

The questioner (Gadget) has implied that somehow, or, sometimes, 'style' is achieved at the expense of following (and possibly the converse - that an excellent follower, in following the script, so to speak, does at the expense of style limiting movement to the necessary only, say). Most of the replies haven't really picked this up but it is what makes the question interesting.

I think Gadget is on to something. Recently i've come across dancers who looked really promising early on and then 'got style' i.e.,started to make a lot of gestures and flourishes, all the time racing around and prancing about (and missing the offered hand!). For me as a lead all the enjoyment hitherto felt evaporated and with these dancers I am only to happy for the (merciful) end to come quickly. Give me the girl who loves to follow, who is alert and flexible, delighting in the choice and variety of moves, able on the one hand to double spin and move quickly and on the other to slow it down and respond to the offer to play at the behest of my lead.

Following ability and style are not mutually exclusive obviously and style is highly subject to taste. But there is bad style as well as good and when the 'free expressionists' (cf Little Hans) are given too much rope and forget the basics of lead and follow the dancing suffers.

We all think we look better than we do (i saw the teacher do that; I learnt it; therefore I must look like him or her when I do it - NO) and if some of the dancers kept it simpler with less 'Expression' and tighter it might look better.Less is more?

[Yliander]

style is all well and good - but if it compromises the dance it spoils the fun - I would prefere to have a clean well lead dance than a badly lead over styled dance.

There is not much fun to be had in a dance where my patner is flapping and wiggling around and I am suposed to from esp or something pick which of the wild mad cap arm flallings are signals and leads!!!!

I know that the amount of styling I do myself when dancing varies from partner to partner - I leave all my styling at my seat when dancing with beginners - dance cleanly with standard class taught style - it can really throw beginner leads when the girl starts doing a large amoutn of styling - but the more experienced the lead the more I will do....

[Magic Hans]

Reading further on, and seeing that I am still in the minority, here's my attempt to mix things up, try to confuse and otherwise state my case as convincingly as possible!!!!

Firstly I challenge the original question! "Leading the witness, your 'onor!"

I read the subtext as being. "Do you like to dance for the audience despite your partner, or for your partner despite your audience?"

I'd like to believe that most (if not everyone) that partner dances, would be dancing for their partner, else they would choose non-partner dancing!

A far more interesting question (in my humble and downright subjective opinion) is:

For a partner with which you have rapport:

Do you like your partner to lead/follow correctly and precisely, though it may feel somewhat cold or mechanical? or
Do you like your partner to express the music as feelingly as possible, and risk some confusion (and seperation) with lead/follow?

Originally Posted by jockey

The questioner (Gadget) has implied that somehow, or, sometimes, 'style' is achieved at the expense of following (and possibly the converse - that an excellent follower, in following the script, so to speak, does at the expense of style limiting movement to the necessary only, say). ...

This is very possible (again in my subjective opinion) where there is little rapport. When both partners are physically communicating on the same level, no matter skill and ability, there is good clarity in the lead/follow relationship, even though it may go wrong [it's a definite wrong, and both partners know it!].

As for impressing the audience versus expressing ourselves, I wonder how linked they are?

Originally Posted by Aristotle

What we impress internally, we express externally.

Which is AFAIK, different to going out of our way to please others (audience). Far better to do it our way than to try to do it others way. I'm far better at being myself than being anyone else, although I can model them!

There ..... how did I do? Confused now? Hope so!!!!

!an

[Sheepman]

I think the poll options don't really follow from the thread title, but I had to vote for dancing for my partner, not the audience.

There are exceptions to this of course, it's that competition thing again, and I wouldn't expect to be competing with someone unless I knew they were a great follower, and we had great rapport, the fact that we enjoy dancing together is taken as read.
So in practicing for competitions, my partner and I will try to dance "for an audience" for some of the time, they're probably thinking "what are those stupid hotshots playing at?" (especially considering my own lack of style) but it is important in learning to present to an audience, and it can help to find out what works and what doesn't.

Greg

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Sheepman

I think the poll options don't really follow from the thread title, but I had to vote for dancing for my partner, not the audience.

There are exceptions to this of course, it's that competition thing again, and I wouldn't expect to be competing with someone unless I knew they were a great follower, and we had great rapport, the fact that we enjoy dancing together is taken as read.

Competitions are different of course, but I have experienced dancing with a guy who was far more concerned with how the dancing looked to those sitting round the dancefloor than how it felt to me To the extent of looking round to see who was watching, and making sure he looked good. I felt like a dancing accessory, not a partner. (Glad to say this was in salsa, not MJ).

[Gadget]

A few very interesting points raised, I thought I would put forward what my perception of style is:
"Style" is what looks good to an observer; be it your partner, the person sitting waiting to be asked to dance, or a panel of judges. It is what you do outside of the lead/follow and how you move within the framework of that connection.
What I was trying to do was separate 'style' from 'lead/follow' and show that the two are not guaranteed to go together. I think that some 'style' has to be sacrificed in order to lead/follow clearer - if the lady can understand a quieter lead, then the man can add more "style": If a man gives a very clear lead, then the lady can work in more "style".

A simple return - Beginners:
Does the lady simply return? The hand moves and the lady turns under it - then waits for the signal for the next move to start.
Does the man simply watch? Raise the hand, let the lady turn and go into the next move.

A simple return - Good lead/follower:
Does the lady follow her hand? The hand moves, then the rest of the body turns - maintaining the same 'delay' between the hand and the turn - if the hand slows towards the exit, lady slows.
Does the man step to match the hand's movement? As the hand is raised and moved above the lady, a small step in, then stepping back as the hand is lowered from the lady having turned.

A simple return - Some style:
Does the hand act to 'pull' the lady behind it? The hand moves and the lady follows as if on elastic; a slight delay in the rest of the body following - the exit is 'cushioned' into the next move, smoothing it out. The spare hand is used to 'flow' behind the path of the lady's movement or 'pull' the lady through the movement.
Does the man direct the lead with the rest of his body? The hand doesn't just raise to turn the lady, the man steps more upright and follows his own hand as the hand raises - as the hand is lowered, they lower - taking the following momentum into their own body shape as the next move is led.
The spare hand is connected to the lead hand and is almost a flip mirror, drawing a smaller, controlled curve in the air to the side/behind him.


Personally, I think that what may be happening in my dancing is that I am concentrating on leading so clearly that the ladies have masses of opportunity to be stylish and play with the song - I enjoy watching the lady's perform to my tune. But I am dancing for her, and she is dancing for me; it's fun, but not quite the same as dancing together.

[Cornish Pixie]

Firstly i think you need to get the balance right between style and leading. Although adding style sometimes makes the lead less clear it is fun for the men to add some style to their dancing. We need to get somewhere in between - A little style with a good but not absolutely perfect lead?IMHO

Personally- I enjoy moves that feel good to me but also some moves that feel good look also look good to spectators and this also makes me happy.

[Alfie]

I dont own an ounce of style so I have to go for being a good lead and hope that my partner enjoys the dance with me. I like to be there for my partner for the duration of that dance and do not notice the people around the floor watching, although I keep an eye on those dancing around me for safetys sake.
I dont dance for the pleasure of others only for myself and my partner of that moment. If people like to watch me dance and enjoy what I do on the dance floor, great I like to see happy people.