Competitions:Ideas for rule changes

[Will]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I'll have a stab...

Blackpool
Hammersmith
Britroc
Bristol & Scotland

This order relates to dancer calibre only - not to other things like music, venue and organisation.

At the risk of getting lynched by the usual suspects, I have to say that in terms of dance calibre, Hammersmith still has the edge over Blackpool. Please note that I'm not commenting on venue, judging, organisation or anything else. But the fact is the average standard in the Ceroc champs is always higher, simply because it is based in London which is where the highest concentration of advanced dancers is. Hammersmith also the comp where you are likely to run into the top Aussie couples when they decide to come over to compete.

Now come on Gus, tell me I'm wrong

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gus

Sorry ... but I dont think I'm "quibbling". My central point was that a defintion deosn not exist ... i.e. the organisers have not explicitly stated why those categories are there. You have provided a good working defintion and listed a number of reasons for such a division ... but this list is not exclusive and the entrants may have a very different view. If there was a single definiton of what the purpose of the categories are then some of the grey areas would be removed and we would have to find another topic to needlessly argue about

Well, ok, the list may not be exclusive. But apart from people that like to turn it into an oppotunity for a comedy p1ss-about, what actual other reasons that I've missed make the discussion pointless?

AFAICS, it all boils down to a sense of unfairness about some people entering a category that a significant number think is too low for them, thus opening up potential accusations of trophy hunting.

And because not all people's sense of fair play is the same, you have to have rules. I don't see that a discussion of what the rules should be can't happen independently of some global definition of purpose.

[David Franklin]

This post to be taken as ODA - I don't actually disagree this strongly, but think the opposing view needs to be aired...

Originally Posted by ChrisA

This is just semantic quibbling, though. You might just as well use the same arguments to support a suggestion that the Olympics (including heats for it perhaps) should be the only athletics competition.

Sorry, but I don't see the parallel - what's the athletics equivalent of an intermediate competition? The athletics 'hierarchy' seems organised on geographic regions (i.e. local, regional, national, international competitions), rather than by ability or competition experience.

My definition includes all of the above though, I would contend. With an intermediate section, lots of people will get involved in competitions that wouldn't if they always had to compete against Clayton and Janine etc; finding the 'best' at Intermediate is, for those in that category, just as exciting as finding the best at the higher levels.

But over 90% of the intermediates have no chance of placing whether or not Clayton and Janine etc. are there. If the goal is to have a serious chance, the intermediate category is already a very intimidating category (and is only going to get more so). But if the goal is just to "get out there and compete", why not get rid of all the arguments and just have one category open to everyone? And in showcase, whatever your level, you have to compete against Clayton & Janine, Adam & Tas, Will and Kate. So why can't we have an intermediate showcase as well? (Because I just know everyone would love another 10 showcases to sit through... )

Maybe in a sense we do need something like the olympics - if we had more local competitions, then the "intermediate" dancers could get a sense of accomplishment, and the fact that they then go out in the 1st round of the national competition wouldn't be a problem.

What matters is that since the majority take it seriously and work hard, they shouldn't be put off by the p1ss-takers (although there is an argument as DavdB put it, that the p1ss-takers don't usually do very well), and they shouldn't have to be up against people that make it pointless for them to be there.

Not sure what you mean by "pointless to be there". But stipulating you mean "leaving them with no chance of placing", suppose I come 4th; then I reckon those b**stards who danced better and came 1st,2nd and 3rd made it "pointless". Disqualify them, I say! Tell them they should enter advanced next time. Then I can win, win, WIN!. (There's never an evil laugh smiley when you need one ).

Dave

[Andy McGregor]

I'm with Gus on this one. There is no clearly defined purpose to the intermediate category. And until there is one it is impossible to say who is and isn't eligible. My own contention, for Blackpool, is that while the advanced is for professionals the intermediate should be for amateurs. Then the intermediate category would be there to select the best amateur dancer.

But, if this were to happen, the standard would go up in the lowest lowest category. This would result in people being put off entering their first competition as they would probably have no hope of getting very far.

So we would need a beginners category. And for that I rather like RobC's suggestion of dancers sticking to a list of moves that can be done.

Originally Posted by ChrisA

What matters is that since the majority take it seriously and work hard, they shouldn't be put off by the p1ss-takers (although there is an argument as DavdB put it, that the p1ss-takers don't usually do very well), and they shouldn't have to be up against people that make it pointless for them to be there.

As one of the people ChrisA thinks of in this light I thought I'd mount a defence. It is only ChrisA's opinion that I take the p**s. IMHO I am entertaining and funny - and the last time I did it I came 4th the time before that I came 3rd, so the judges must agree with me and not ChrisA! Consider this, at the last Blackpool Competition I took the Intermediate relatively seriously, I spent well over £130 on clothes and wigs, spent about £120 on travel and accomodation. Paid £65 (I think) to get in and enter. That's over £300 to 'take the p**s' - it is completely untrue that I 'took the p**s, although some people might have felt intimidated. That decision to feel the way they felt was theirs, not mine, all I did was dress up, be entertaining and dance as well as I know how. I entered for fun and I entered to win. And I thought dressing the same as my partner and entering as twins would get us the maximum points for dress and presentation. Our dancing was exactly the same as it would have been if I'd entered in black as a Ceroc clone and I'd have received no points for presentation. All I needed to do was practice a bit more and we would have done better than 4th.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

It is only ChrisA's opinion that I take the p**s.

Actually, it's mine too. Sorry.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

As one of the people ChrisA thinks of in this light I thought I'd mount a defence. It is only ChrisA's opinion that I take the p**s.

Of course it's my opinion. That's all I'm expressing it as. But I'm not the only one to hold it. And I completely respect the right of the judges to mark the couples as they see fit.

And I thought dressing the same as my partner and entering as twins would get us the maximum points for dress and presentation. Our dancing was exactly the same as it would have been if I'd entered in black as a Ceroc clone and I'd have received no points for presentation. All I needed to do was practice a bit more and we would have done better than 4th.

Your dancing sooooooooo is not the same when you're doing a comedy act - you ham it up, act camp, and dance completely differently from when you're taking it seriously.

And as I recall, you switched (rather tactically, it appeared, although I recall you were complaining about not having matching costumes for that final - I wonder why ) to playing it completely straight for the final at Blackpool, and danced pretty well. And you had a pretty advanced partner, so you jolly well should have

Anyway, I'm not attacking your right to do things the way you do, I just don't like it, is all

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Will

At the risk of getting lynched by the usual suspects, I have to say that in terms of dance calibre, Hammersmith still has the edge over Blackpool...... Now come on Gus, tell me I'm wrong

Hate to dissapoint ... I have in my hand a noose and many willing volunteers

You poor, poor lad. If you ever manage to prise yourself away from your Xbox and penetrate that barrier the Northeners erected (i.e. the M25) you would realise that the majority of life exists OUTSIDE London. How can anyone in London say they have more advanced dnacers .... anyone from "darn sarf" ever bothered to dance around up North? As for Hammersmith ..... was Viktor there? Rest my case

The simple fact is, right or wrong, many people have abject contempt for Ceroc AND southern dance comps because they are seen as being biased to the local dancers (dont flame me ... just reporting facts). Most of my mob wouldnt complete at Ceroc for the two reasons just stated. Sooooooo if you want a true UK Champs then it has to be one which is independant, therefore Blackpool wins QED!

15 - 30 ?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

And as I recall, you switched (rather tactically, it appeared, although I recall you were complaining about not having matching costumes for that final - I wonder why )

About a fortnight before the competition Hollie had bought a nice pink outfit at Top Shop, she'd show it to me and sent me off to get one that matched. I looked in loads of Top Shops and couldn't find another one anywhere

I still think we would have got more marks if we'd worn matching outfits in the final. And, in hindsight we should both have dressed as identical men in white tie and tails.

As I said, people might think we're taking the p**s but that is all in their heads. What were we taking it out of? What were we saying? That we can win in women's clothing? I think we proved we couldn't

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Gus

Hate to disspoint ... I have in my hand a noose and many willing volunteers

You poor, poor lad. If you ever manage to prise yourself away from your Xbox and penetrate that barrier the Northeners erected (i.e. the M25) you would realise that teh majority of life exists OUTSIDE London. How can anyone in London say they have more advanced dnacers .... anyone from "darn sarf" ever bothered to dance around up North? As for Hammersmith ..... was Viktor there? Rest my case

The simple fact is, right or wrong, many people have abject contempt for Ceroc AND southern dance comps because they are seen as being biased to the local dancers (dont flame me ... just reporting facts). Most of my mob wouldnt complete at Ceroc for the two reasons just stated. Sooooooo if you want a true UK Champs then it has to be one which is independant, therefore Blackpool wins QED!

I'm having a bad day, I'm nearly agreeing with Gus and disagreeing with Will. The standard at Blackpool and at Hammersmith was the same. The winners of the top level at both competitions were Clayton and Janine - it stands to reason that somebody would have beaten Clayton and Janine at Hammersmith if the standard had been higher than Blackpool.

I think the dancing at Blackpool was better to watch overall, there were more showcases and there were more group cabarets. However, I think the dancing in the Open at Hammersmith was far more spectacular than the Advanced at Blackpool - but that was because they allowed lifts and DavidB showed us the Doughnut*

*although looking at his waistline at the time* I think he'd already seen a few dougnuts

*of course he's much slimmer and better muscled nowadays

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

So why can't we have an intermediate showcase as well? (Because I just know everyone would love another 10 showcases to sit through... )

.. or you could have a new showcase category, where everyone has to choreograph a routine to the same track (published a few months in advance). That way everyone can dance at the same time & you only have to sit through it once...

[DavidY]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I'm with Gus on this one. There is no clearly defined purpose to the intermediate category. And until there is one it is impossible to say who is and isn't eligible. My own contention, for Blackpool, is that while the advanced is for professionals the intermediate should be for amateurs. Then the intermediate category would be there to select the best amateur dancer.

I agree but would put it the other way round -once you have some clearly defined criteria then the purpose is to be the best that matches the criteria.

The tricky bit is defining the criteria.

[Chef]

How is this for a different idea.

A fixed period during which you can compete at a certain level.

Steal from the world of ballroom competitions. The B&L world has a series of graded exams, which after you pass one level you are allowed to compete at that level for a fixed period of time (one year). After that time you either have to stop competing or pass the next level of exam which moves you up to the next level of competions.

The moves allowed within each level are defined so there is no point trying to dazzle the judges. All you have to do are those moves that are allowed but do them well. The MJ world doesn't have the structure for exams to be set and assesed but the idea of a time limit in a certain category could be possible. It might stop people who have been dancing for 9 months finding themselves up against people that have been for dancing 5 years or more.

You can take as long as you like to take and pass the exam but once you have then the clock starts ticking.

What do you think?

[Lory]

I've only ever been to 1 comp and that was only to the evening, maybe the forum's given me an aversion to them

But couldn't there be separate 'fun' category, judged solely on entertainment value and costumes, etc.

The couple who entertained the most, wins! No rules?

No-one could get cross about it then, could they?

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Gus

The simple fact is, right or wrong, many people have abject contempt for Ceroc AND southern dance comps because they are seen as being biased to the local dancers (dont flame me ... just reporting facts). Most of my mob wouldnt complete at Ceroc for the two reasons just stated. Sooooooo if you want a true UK Champs then it has to be one which is independant, therefore Blackpool wins QED!

15 - 30 ?

Does anyone have the 'facts' ie where the last 10 dancers in each catergory were from ? I thought a few were from Aussie land ?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lory

The couple who entertained the most, wins! No rules?

No-one could get cross about it then, could they?

Fab idea.

Would there ever be more than one entrant, though?

[Zuhal]

Slightly off topic

Personally I am not good enough to enter a competion but I enjoy the fun of a DWAS. I have every sympathy with Andy for having his votes counted wrongly. As part of that heat I was probably the beneficiary of the error, though had no part in it. Thanks

The DWAS is a bit of fun but it is also a first step for lots of average dancers. If all the main competition entrants enter the DWAS, the Male Leaders will displace some budding beginner. Does that make them feel good!

Zuhal

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Zuhal

The DWAS is a bit of fun but it is also a first step for lots of average dancers. If all the main competition entrants enter the DWAS, the Male Leaders will displace some budding beginner. Does that make them feel good!

I think DWAS is a bit different. It's not a beginners competition as such - it's where dancers of all levels mix it up together, and IMHO this is a positive thing.

If a 'budding beginner', as you put it , gets one of the more experienced competition dancers, it should be a positive experience if the experienced dancer has the right attitude.

Chris

[DavidB]

Originally Posted by Zuhal

The DWAS is a bit of fun but it is also a first step for lots of average dancers. If all the main competition entrants enter the DWAS, the Male Leaders will displace some budding beginner. Does that make them feel good!

Would you prefer the DWAS to have Intermediate, Advanced and Open sections as well?

Personally I would like it if there was one competition like this, as I think it would make a nice change. I know several people who don't do DWAS because they are afraid of drawing one of the top dancers. And others who can't see the point, because it always seems to be the same few leaders doing well. (Maybe we should have a separate section just for Sherif and Roger!)
But I wouldn't want all of them to take this approach, because I also like the existing format as well. There are people who do DWAS just in the hope of drawing one of the top dancers!