Competitions:Ideas for rule changes

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

I agree that a change in the rules is needed. But who can agree what the change should be?

A good question. Doubtless the MJDA, when it comes into existence, will be a democratic institution

So let's have a little dry run...

[ChrisA]

By the way....

... one question I've avoided, since I couldn't word it concisely enough to represent in the poll options is what you do when one partner is hugely more experienced than the other.

The Andy/Lynn (Britroc) example comes to mind, cos it would be a great shame if such a combination were made illegal. However, that was very clear-cut IMHO - there would be lots of cases where, for example, someone who regularly competed at Advanced danced with an Intermediate finalist, made an awesome couple, and weren't Intermediate at all in combination.

Anyway, enjoy the poll.

Chris

[ChrisA]

Hey y'all... just refreshing this thread a bit, cos maybe lots of people that hang out on the forum do so mostly during the week... but I'd really like to get an idea of what people's views on this really are.

We've had so much, ahem, discussion, on this topic over the last nine months or so, I think it would be good to get a representative set of votes on the subject.

Probably among the first few items on the agenda of the first MJDA meeting, so let's get some views in.

Chris

[Lory]

Can you clarify what you mean, I'm confused, (I'm not a comp buff) is this how is is at the moment?........Placed? Then move up - at an equivalent level competition or lower, if so, what could the alternatives be?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lory

Can you clarify what you mean, I'm confused, (I'm not a comp buff) is this how is is at the moment?........Placed? Then move up - at an equivalent level competition or lower, if so, what could the alternatives be?

Placed = 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.

The impression I got last time this was a hot topic was that it would be a bit harsh on someone placing, say at Intermediate, in a regional comp (eg Bristol, Scotland) to expect them to have to move up to Advanced at Blackpool or Hammersmith (maybe even Britroc).

So national comps, eg Blackpool, Hammersmith, if you place in either, the suggestion is, move up to the next category, either this season or next (there's some valid debate to be had there IMHO). But place in a regional comp, it's still Ok to stay at that level in the nationals.

By the same token, place at Blackpool at Intermediate, what on earth are you doing in the Intermediates any more at Bristol?

Hope this is clearer.

Cx

PS Still think there's a question over mixed-experience couples. I'm inclining towards Andy's view, but not convinced yet.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lory

is this how is is at the moment?

Sorry, I realise I might not have answered this.

No, it's not how it is at the moment.

At the moment, it's a complete mess, IMHO, with no consistency from one comp to another.

At Blackpool, teachers and pros (whatever that is) are excluded from the Intermediates - so Clayton & Janine could enter at Intermediate. How ridiculous is that???

At one of the Leroc comps, you mustn't have actually won, if you want to enter at any level except Open, but I think that still lets lots of Advanced dancers technically enter at Intermediate.

Can't remember what the rule is at Hammersmith, but it's yet another variant. Teachers are excluded from everything except the Open, but why should that be - lots of teachers aren't necessarily better than lots of non-teachers.

Just needs a lot of sorting out, IMHO.

Chris

[Lory]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

By the same token, place at Blackpool at Intermediate, what on earth are you doing in the Intermediates any more at Bristol?

Hope this is clearer.

It's clearer BUT the answer's thrown up another question... It's now become apparent that each competition has different kudos, e.g. The Blackpool intermediate is equivalent to the Bristol advanced?

How is someone new to comps supposed to know this?

Is there a commonly recognised 'best competition' to win?

Can someone write a list and grade the main comps, starting with the cream of the crop, (presumably the Jivemasters)?

[Lynn]

I'm not totally sure about the 'placed and move up' bit - so someone comes 3rd in Intermediate - if they aren't 'good enough' to win the Intermediate then how would they feel about next time competing at a higher level? I think that even if someone was placed they should continue to be allowed to re-enter at that level for a period of time, say 1 year, before having to move up. If they are not placed again in another comp during that time, they maybe could be allowed to remain at that level? On the other hand 'win' and move up makes more sense as they are the best at that level so should move up.

Don't agree with the 'teachers' rule - someone can be a competent dancer and an excellent communicator - they would make a great teacher but not nessecarily be at the top level for competions. OK, sorry, this has all been said before I know, but just wanted to put my view in - with all my extensive competition experience of course!

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I'm not totally sure about the 'placed and move up' bit - so someone comes 3rd in Intermediate - if they aren't 'good enough' to win the Intermediate then how would they feel about next time competing at a higher level?

Well, speaking personally - totally intimidated !!!!

But for me it's more about how I would feel staying at Intermediate - and the answer is - completely hypocritical, no matter how ill-equipped I might feel about the prospect of doing well at the next level up.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I think that even if someone was placed they should continue to be allowed to re-enter at that level for a period of time, say 1 year, before having to move up. If they are not placed again in another comp during that time, they maybe could be allowed to remain at that level? On the other hand 'win' and move up makes more sense as they are the best at that level so should move up.

Yep, a very valid view, and worthy of a lot more debate than it's had. But there won't be a resolution of this finer point until the coarser issues have been dealt with properly, I reckon.

Originally Posted by Lynn

Don't agree with the 'teachers' rule - someone can be a competent dancer and an excellent communicator - they would make a great teacher but not nessecarily be at the top level for competions.

.....

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Lory

Can someone write a list and grade the main comps, starting with the cream of the crop, (presumably the Jivemasters)?

I'll have a stab...

Blackpool
Hammersmith
Britroc
Bristol & Scotland

This order relates to dancer calibre only - not to other things like music, venue and organisation. For my money, Bristol and Britroc take the prize this year, with Blackpool next and Hammersmith an awful last.

(though I can't comment on Scotland really, since I wasn't there this year.)

Not entirely sure where the Jivemasters fits in. It's invitation only, so slightly different. And it's marked by the audience, which is different again.

And in, hopefully, a small minority of cases, members of the audience aren't clear on the difference in the levels of musical interpretation between a dance competition and a telephone directory

Certainly if you place in Jivemasters I think it would be outrageous to see you in the Intermediates anywhere. But I wouldn't want to go too far down that road.

Still clear as mud?

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Vaguely worded mish-mash?

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Vaguely worded mish-mash?

Don't understand the relevance.

We're talking about eligibility to enter, not how the judging should be done.

[Jive Brummie]

I love the competition discussions...

The way I see it is (FWIW),

Place at a national, Blackpool / Hammersmith...move up. That applies to the 2nd and 3rd placers too. The standard of intermediate dancer is going through the roof. At the end of the day, the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd place could be a few points, so why should the person who comes first feel any less intimidated than the runners up when it comes to moving up a level?

Mixed ability couples...hmmmmm, tricky one. Gut reaction says that you should compete at the level of the better/more experienced dancer. Just personnal opinion though.

James

[Lory]

Originally Posted by Jive Brummie

Mixed ability couples...hmmmmm, tricky one. Gut reaction says that you should compete at the level of the better/more experienced dancer. Just personnal opinion though.

James

How about just going on the 'leaders' level?

[Dazzle]

IMHO the answer to this post can very much depend on where you are coming from.

I have to enter the Advanced at Blackpool because I have just become an Instructor. I have never competed before and would have preferred to have entered the Intermediate section to test the competition waters.

I think the time you have been dancing is as poor an indicator as many of the others. I have danced with dancers who have been dancing for 2 years and they have been of a lower standard than someone else who has been dancing 12 months. It depends on your natrural ability and dancing frequency and exposure.

Maybe the experience of competition should be an indicator to the level entered? How do we prove this other than remembering names and faces? Maybe the MJDA (or whatever it may be if at all) could implement a competition passport that lists your past attempts and successes. This would then be used to determine your entry level?

An administrative nightmare? Blue Sky view?

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Jive Brummie

The standard of intermediate dancer is going through the roof. ....

This is an interesting point. Helen and I came 4th in the UK Champs in 2002. Two and a half years on an objective view was that we would be hard pressed to get placed in the Intermediates. This is a factor that we don’t have the time to get any dance time in AND the fact that the standard of dancing has raised considerably. IF we weren’t teachers ... would we allowed to drop down to a competition that suited our current dance standard? Comparison ... I was once 1st kyu grade in karate .... returning to the sport 10 years on I would not expect to start wearing a brown belt again ... I'd expect to have to go through regarding until I got a belt that reflected my current status.

Are you assessing; the standard of someone’s dancing against their current performance, against the couples performance, or against the level of their experience .... i.e. should a couple be allowed to compete at intermediates just because they couldn't be bothered to put in all the hard work necessary to get them up to standard?

Further thought....... all the above questions are TOTALLY irrelevant until someone managed to state categorically what is the purpose of the intermediate category"!!

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gus

Further thought....... all the above questions are TOTALLY irrelevant until someone managed to state categorically what is the purpose of the intermediate category"!!

I find this question surprising.

Why should the purpose of the Intermediates be different from the purpose of the Advanced, or even the Open, for that matter?

It's a competition to give dancers at the respective levels the opportunity to be judged relative to one another. They're seeking to improve, to gain confidence, approval, respect, kudos if they do well... even if they don't actually win.

At least the majority take it this way. Some people choose to make it into an opportunity for a p1ss-about - usually it's a comedy performance of some kind, just not a good enough one to enter as a showcase, but hopefully this kind of thing will remain in the minority.

Chris

[Gus]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I find this question surprising.

Why should the purpose of the Intermediates be different from the purpose of the Advanced, or even the Open, for that matter?

I think your comments prove that the question has not yet been answered. Advanced/Open is to find the best dancers. What is intermediate for ... to find the best dancers who arent as good the the best dancers? Is it to give a section for those who arent as experinced as the top competitors, is it just a section so that the organisers can take more money, is it a stepping stone? etc. etc. If it is so that dnacers can compete at their 'own' level then it is obviously incorrect to have dancers competing in more than one section.

This subject was covered previously in last years debate .. but was never adequalty answered (IMHO). Until you can state categoricaly what the purpose of the division system is then you cant define the rules for allowing/disallowing entry.

[ChrisA]

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