Relativity of the beginner

[Lory]

Over the past 2 weeks, I've tried out another 2 styles of partner dancing, Lindy and WCS and it occurred to me, even though i'd not done these style before, I'm not REALLY a beginner in either...

Though my observations of how it 'feels' to be a beginner again were amazing

I went with a friend, to a very well known Lindy club in the heart of the West End, as walked down the stairs I found my self being blocked by a few obvious regulars chatting amongst themselves, in front of the pay desk, I stood patiently waiting for them to notice that I was waiting to pay but in the end I had to say excuse me.

The girl at the desk was friendly but English wasn't her first language so I had to ask her to repeat herself a couple of times when I was asking what the format was. She asked if I'd done any Lindy before, I said no, so she pointed me in the direction of the beginner class (which had just started)

My friend had already done Lindy before, so he went to the inters.

There were 10 ladies over but split into two lot's of 5 staggered equally round the circle, luckily for me, I knew the drill because of MJ but I imagined how it must feel to anyone who'd never done anything like this before. No-one directed me to where I should stand.

We rotated and the first man I partnered, was clearly more of a beginner than ME and I found myself helping him. As I rotated, I realised that I'm NOT a beginner in the true sense, as a lot of the people there had never partner danced before and I was back to learning at a very slow pace with men who couldn't lead at all.

After the lesson finished, I met up with my friend and we stood watching for a while, I didn't know ANYONE.

No-one asked me to dance but I managed to spark up a conversation with a guy sitting next to me and it turned out he was a teacher, (I haven't a clue if he was the type that in normal circumstances only dances with people 'worthy' of him) but I asked him for a dance anyway, he kind of squirmed in his seat, looked around for a 'get out', and made me feel very awkward but he agreed reluctantly and the pressure was on. So I gave it my best shot and we ended up having a good laugh. His comment after was, Lindy is 10% technique and 90% attitude and you've got 95%

I asked him who else I should ask and from then on he 'looked after me' pointing out more and more unsuspecting victims.

I ended up having a fun evening but I'm not so sure 'everyone' would have.

Anyway, this got me thinking, I learnt absolutely NOTHING from that class!!! But I learned a massive amount from dancing with the really good dancers.

So, when it came to the WCS, rightly or wrongly, I bit the bullet and went straight into the inters.

I'm definitly NOT 'good enough' to be able to cope with learning AND with beginner men!

For me, I think I made the right decision!

This post is a bit rambling, feel free to pick up on ANY points!

[Northants Girly]

My experience of a Lindy class was very similar to yours. I would say that the other dancers where I went were friendly enough though but it was strange as there were only 20-30 of us in the classes. I did a beginners class and then the intermediate class which followed on and I felt like I'd learnt much more from the intermediate class.

At the end of the classes there was some freestyle time but the teachers weren't in a hurry to dance with anyone. Only one guy asked me to dance and (thanks to Ceroc) I managed to follow him not too badly.

I came away feeling that it would take me a very long time to pick Lindy up - mainly because of the lack of partners I'd have to practise with. I did mean to go back . . . . but never got round to it.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by Lory

His comment after was, Lindy is 10% technique and 90% attitude and you've got 95%

No one would ever deny you have attitude

This post is a bit rambling, feel free to pick up on ANY points!

I enjoyed the rambling Good point too, anyone thats been dancing more than a year is probably not a beginner in that sense i.e. they know the concepts of a lead follow dance - it doesn't mean they are good at it of course but the basics are there. Sometimes thats a bad thing too, as a little knowledge can be a terrible thing, and make it much harder - a good example is WCS, it requires a firm lead and i was surprised just how bad my lead was when I tried it, but it improved me no end. Ive also dance with ladies who dont maintain any tension, which makes it next to impossible to lead very well in practically every other dance style except jive or maybe thats just me

[DavidY]

I find when taxiing that some "beginners" are really easy to lead, even if they've never danced MJ before.

Quite often it turns out they've done some form of dancing before. Even people who've only done line dancing (rather than partner dancing) can sometimes follow as well on their first night as some intermediates who've been dancing for weeks.

I suspect it may be a different story from the leader's perspective though.

[Andreas]

I think I have to disagree with this teacher's point of view regarding Lindy. 10% techniquie is probably enough to dance to swing music but it makes a messy dancer. You can get away easier with little technique in MJ. But w/o reasonable footwork in swing you'll be hard to dance with because chances are high that you are on 'the other' foot

Unfortunately I am a lousy swing dancer because I never took enough time to get those basic steps to become second nature.

[Banana Man]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

...........as a little knowledge can be a terrible thing, and make it much harder - a good example is WCS, it requires a firm lead and i was surprised just how bad my lead was when I tried it, but it improved me no end. ........

when I started WCS I found out the hard way that my lead wasn't that accurate, and whilst MJ is a bit forgiving WCS is definitely not good job LilyB was on hand to put me right.

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

Ive also dance with ladies who dont maintain any tension, which makes it next to impossible to lead very well in practically every other dance style except jive or maybe thats just me

Went to ISH in London this week, got there late so only saw the end of the Int class but the teacher made the point about tension in the ladies arm, first time I'd heard any Ceroc teacher say this in a class.

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by Lory

Over the past 2 weeks, I've tried out another 2 styles of partner dancing, Lindy and WCS and it occurred to me, even though i'd not done these style before, I'm not REALLY a beginner in either...

Though my observations of how it 'feels' to be a beginner again were amazing

I went with a friend, to a very well known Lindy club in the heart of the West End, as walked down the stairs I found my self being blocked by a few obvious regulars chatting amongst themselves, in front of the pay desk, I stood patiently waiting for them to notice that I was waiting to pay but in the end I had to say excuse me.


<< cut >>

I asked him who else I should ask and from then on he 'looked after me' pointing out more and more unsuspecting victims.

I ended up having a fun evening but I'm not so sure 'everyone' would have.

Anyway, this got me thinking, I learnt absolutely NOTHING from that class!!! But I learned a massive amount from dancing with the really good dancers.

<< cut >>

For me, I think I made the right decision!

This post is a bit rambling, feel free to pick up on ANY points!

I found this to be an interesting and though-provoking post. Maybe MJ teachers and taxi-dancers should each year try a new / alien dance style and "re-learn" the beginners experience (although as you pointed out you weren't really a beginner for those styles) so they can ensure beginners are included, encouraged and supported in their classes?

Probably because of your "have a go" approach you got a lot out of the evening - whereas the more wall-flower types would have felt isolated and excluded.

Does Ceroc follow up new joiners to ask how welcome / comfortable they felt in their first few lessons? That, and the male / female ratio (accepting there are same-sex couples), seem the vital factors affecting someone's decision to continue with MJ.

Clive

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by DavidY

Quite often it turns out they've done some form of dancing before. Even people who've only done line dancing (rather than partner dancing)

Steady, steady. Where are my blood-pressure tablets?

(It's the phrase line dancing sets me off).

Clive

[Geordieed]

Hi Lory,

unfortunately 99%+ of us guys learning WCS are beginners. But it is good to know we are all in the same boat. I can only think of 2 guys who haven't taught WCS who couldn't be classed as beginners. Out of the 2 I have only seen one of them this year.

It will take some time before any of us can say we are not beginners but that doesn't stop the fun. It is also refreshing to see us all struggling away and being driven forward by a dance we all love.

[Geordieed]

- a good example is WCS, it requires a firm lead


Using the 'firm' is not the best description for the leader to give when leading his follower. It implies some degree of force and that would not be correct. Are you trying to say you have to be positive about what you lead. If the lady is learning to feel a lead then you could be contributing to false information on what the experience of the dance should be like.

[TheTramp]

Beginners....!!

[Feelingpink]

As a WCS beginner, I think it depends on who is teaching the class as to whether you might just want to step into the intermediates (and hey, because I'm such a beginner, I could well be wrong, but this is my experience).

There are things that you 'should' learn and be practising in a beginner class such as
- moving the weight from your back (left) foot to your front (right) at the start of the first move
- giving the guy some tension in the lead-up to the "1" count of the move so that he knows that you're ready to dance (if you don't give this, apparently, the lead could think you are still playing)
- getting the tension right between you and him in everything, sugar push included (balancing your right and left hand tension so it is even as well)
- breaking on the right beat and getting it to become second nature
- leaning your shoulders toward the guy and coming in quite close on the sugar push (guys should be heading for your right bra strap so you don't bang heads)
- keeping your feet in contact with the floor or very close for most of the moves rather than lifting them

There are loads more ... but if the teacher is mostly concerned with having people learn the steps, then these are things that could get missed. Personally, having all of this to think about fairly much keeps me occupied during a beginner's class, but if I didn't know all of this (Paul Warden & Sally teaching at Rock Bottoms, earlier Lily & Oracle and a bit of RKing kitchen tuition), then I'd be as bored as anything in the beginners' class.

There's also the 'charity' factor i.e. if women with some idea of arm tension (from other dance styles) don't do the beginner class, then the poor blokes have even less idea of what 'good' moves feel like and it will take them even longer before they are 'fun' to dance with.

[foxylady]

Originally Posted by Lory

Over the past 2 weeks, I've tried out another 2 styles of partner dancing, Lindy and WCS and it occurred to me, even though i'd not done these style before, I'm not REALLY a beginner in either...

Though my observations of how it 'feels' to be a beginner again were amazing

I went with a friend, to a very well known Lindy club in the heart of the West End, as walked down the stairs I found my self being blocked by a few obvious regulars chatting amongst themselves, in front of the pay desk, I stood patiently waiting for them to notice that I was waiting to pay but in the end I had to say excuse me.
.
/snip
.
This post is a bit rambling, feel free to pick up on ANY points!

I wish you'd told me you were going ! I'd have joined you both (you know I would!)

I learnt Lindy way before I got seriously into MJ, and used to be a regular at this self same club, and the reason I got into MJ was because of the attitude of the Lindy crowd... Its just not friendly in the same way MJ is... I really don't like going there alone, as I know I'll have a miserable time sitting out, and be turned down numerous times. Its horrible. My Lindy may be a bit rusty compared to how it was, but I am certainly competent, but it makes not a jot of difference if you aren't a known face...
On the other hand I went to norwich MJ venue two years ago, not knowing a soul and had a ball !!

But I agree it is hard going back to being a beginner too. I have started having private dance lessons, initiallly to brush up my salsa, but have now moved into ballroom,latin and argentine tango, precisely because I couldn't face going into a beginners environment, with beginner men (by beginner I mean those who haven't partner danced at all).

Foxy

(and P.S. a big hug for Eric.. )

[Feelingpink]

Originally Posted by Lory

...After the lesson finished, I met up with my friend and we stood watching for a while, I didn't know ANYONE.

No-one asked me to dance but I managed to spark up a conversation with a guy sitting next to me ... I asked him who else I should ask and from then on he 'looked after me' pointing out more and more unsuspecting victims.

I ended up having a fun evening but I'm not so sure 'everyone' would have.

To pick up on this too ... I've heard in the last couple of weeks from two dancers (independently) that they've visited Hipsters in the past and not felt welcomed by other dancers. Both are very good dancers - one guy and one girl - and said they had difficulty in finding partners, the guy being turned down a number of times. Neither of them yanks or appears to have a personal hygeine problem (they both seem very likeable) ... so it did make me think more this week and make sure that when I noticed someone new, I asked them to dance.

[Geordieed]

It must be said that there are some very good venues and clubs that do Lindy Hop and have an excellent atmosphere. The venue with the best overall feeling that I have been to teaches and freestyles Lindy Hop. The teachers are fun and add technical aspects into different levels that they teach. From the moment I step in and am greeted by the woman who takes the money I am confronted by a smile and a warm hello.

There are good and bad experiences to be found in alot of different forms of dance. My last experience of Salsa left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I have not been back for years. From time to time I hear about horror stories from certain venues.

[Paul F]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

I found this to be an interesting and though-provoking post. Maybe MJ teachers and taxi-dancers should each year try a new / alien dance style and "re-learn" the beginners experience (although as you pointed out you weren't really a beginner for those styles) so they can ensure beginners are included, encouraged and supported in their classes?

Clive

Ceroc certainly encourage teachers to try out other styles - something which the old CTA didnt do i believe. I think it really helps determine where we are doing things right and where we are falling down.

To continue Lory's post - the first time i ever went to a salsa class it was run by a columbian gentleman who taught the class in spanish or at least elements of the class. As I was just 'thrown' in at the deep end it soured my experience of salsa. it was only a year later I went again, found a fantastic class, and loved it. I have been going ever since.
As it turns out, at the last UK Salsa Congress I took part in his class and loved it - i knew what i was doing this time!!!

Not only does this experience of new classes bring about certain abilities in different syles but it helps gain an understanding of just how a vast cross-section of teachers teach.
One of the things I look for in a teacher (not so much in MJ but is still relevant) is the passion which they have for their art.
Talking about alien dance styles - I have been doing afro-carribean and flamenco for some time now and find that the passion that comes across from the teachers is amazing. I think it is this distinction that sets them apart and gives them the edge over others. Unfortunately none of these classes have the well defined procedures that Ceroc uses. When i started i was as much in the dark as the beginners that turn up now. It is only through those more experienced that they find out where to go!

Is it the footwork/higher degree of difficulty that is preventing these classes to grow as big as some MJ classes or is it the lack of structure

[Northants Girly]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Is it the footwork/higher degree of difficulty that is preventing these classes to grow as big as some MJ classes or is it the lack of structure

I think MJ (well certainly Ceroc in my experience) differs in that beginners can feel that they have acheived something right from the first class. Most folk come away having been taught 4 basic moves most of which they can remember and string together. You soon feel like you are getting somewhere and have at least achieved something. When you leave you leave looking forward to the next night!

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Feelingpink

... so it did make me think more this week and make sure that when I noticed someone new, I asked them to dance.

you certainly do

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by foxylady

I wish you'd told me you were going ! I'd have joined you both (you know I would!)

When you do go can you PM me? There' s a girl at work who danced lots of swing in the US and I have pointed her at the LSDS Web site - but I don't know which venues are "welcoming".

When I have tried Lindy / swing I just get angry with myself because I think I should be able to do it but I can't get the hang of that hop-step-triple-step malarky. MJ probably made me lazzzzzzzzzzzzzy. I'll give swing one more try.

Clive