Permission to drop

[Commis Chef]

I had a very good time at this weekend's Rock Bottoms - Thanks to Tor, Andy Hev et al-

However during one dance with quite a rough dancer he tried to spring a drop on me. When I protested that he had not asked permission he was quite amazed that he should be expected to. His reaction was to make me out to be odd and fussy. He said 'We never ask in Cheltenham!'

I am very happy to do drops with my partner and others who I know and when I am confident in their abilities but I know of those who have been injured by this type of bad manners.

I watched the same man do drops on other women who smiled or grimaced through it. These women do no service to their sisters in allowing men to think this behaviour is OK.

Who dances in Cheltenham? Are you of a similar mind to this man or are you one of the women who puts up with this type of abuse?

As a man do any of you agree with expecting a woman to accept drops if you fancy doing them without checking first?

[El Salsero Gringo]

I believe the man should always ask if he doesn't know the lady he's dancing with. And the more 'serious' the move, the more he should be certain to ask first. But that of course is the counsel of perfection.

If he didn't ask, and you weren't happy with what he was attempting then I think you did exactly the right thing by refusing and explaining why. If his response made you feel at fault then that is even poorer manners on his part!

Given that realistically, not all men are going to ask about dips before trying them - even though they should - I hope the ladies would be quite firm about not going into a move they don't want, even if it spoils the 'flow' of the dance.

The alternative, as you point out, CC, just encourages inconsiderate behaviour amongst the men and risks injury.

[Clive Long]

I believe Lounge Lizard is considered (by some - well himself and his Mum) an authority in this area.

One of his drops "etiquette rules" is something like: A gentleman always asks a lady first

Don't know what is correct action if she ain't no lady though ....

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by Commis Chef

He said 'We never ask in Cheltenham!'

Ah. That'd be **** then (also known as **, *********** or ********** around various parts of the country, where he is infamous in most of them).

He was at the dance in Bristol where I was at last weekend (the 40th birthday bash), and a friend who doesn't dance that much, came up to me at one point in the evening, and said that she'd just had a rough dance with a man, who'd put her into dips that she didn't want to do. I looked around, pointed at ****, and asked "him"? To which, as expected, I was correct....

His take on doing airsteps is that he's strong. So he can. Whether he does them correctly, at the right times, or even with people that want to do them with him, is completely unconsidered. So just think that you got off lightly really...

(Names omitted to protect the guilty! )

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Commis Chef

'We never ask in Cheltenham!'
[...]
Who dances in Cheltenham?

Cheltenham is one of my local, if irregular, haunts - I go there about five or six times a year, between JazzJive terms. To give some background, the Cheltenham hall is big, and dips are a fairly regular part of the "intermediate" routine. The teacher ("H") tends to give basic safety info, but I've not heard him mention etiquette issues so much.

It wouldn't surprise me if this guy's description of de facto Cheltenham etiquette was close-ish to the mark, just chatting informally. You'd have to ask a woman there for a more definitive answer. I do find that Cheltenham women are more likely to say "no dips or drops, please" in advance, if they're injured or tired.

[ElaineB]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Ah. That'd be **** then (also known as **, *********** or ********** around various parts of the country, where he is infamous in most of them).

He was at the dance in Bristol where I was at last weekend (the 40th birthday bash), and a friend who doesn't dance that much, came up to me at one point in the evening, and said that she'd just had a rough dance with a man, who'd put her into dips that she didn't want to do. I looked around, pointed at ****, and asked "him"? To which, as expected, I was correct....

His take on doing airsteps is that he's strong. So he can. Whether he does them correctly, at the right times, or even with people that want to do them with him, is completely unconsidered. So just think that you got off lightly really...

(Names omitted to protect the guilty! )

Hi Tramp,


Would you mind putting that on the Bristol forum please?

Thanks


Elaine

[animaltalk]

As a man do any of you agree with expecting a woman to accept drops if you fancy doing them without checking first?[/quote]

I agree Rbs was fab this weekend - well done rb team

For the reccord I nor sure if you're talking about the same bloke - The Bristol/Bath/Yeovil chap that a reputation with the ladies I know wasn't there, - but very similar story.

For the record - I very rarely ask a lady if she'll do drops, and I haven't had any angry complaints - although I am now waiting for the deluge.

But I tend to feel my way with a new lady - 1st dance - Shoulder leans, and a gentle 1st move seducer. 2nd dance small dropkick, bigger seducer.
I take it slowly, and feel for any resistance - at which point I abort the move - hopefully so subtly she hasn't noticed
And then ask her.

And big drops/aerials just with long term partners on empty beaches/parks.

Should we always ask - or is the above approach acceptable

NTV

[MartinHarper]

On the broader point... Well, you might be injured by a drop, and not everyone even likes them. Can they be taught well in a regular class? What's the correct etiquette? What about ways of avoiding a drop? How many is too many?

If only there was some place where all these questions had been discussed before.

[Commis Chef]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

On the broader point... Well, you might be injured by a drop, and not everyone even likes them. Can they be taught well in a regular class? What's the correct etiquette? What about ways of avoiding a drop? How many is too many?

If only there was some place where all these questions had been discussed before.

Sorry to be an ill informed newcomer.

Anyway, as you know the posts, what did you learn from them?

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by Commis Chef

Sorry to be an ill informed newcomer.

Anyway, as you know the posts, what did you learn from them?

Don't apologise to Martin - it only encourages him

I'm actually jealous of him because I can't get the hang of those cross-post reference things - but don't tell him because we'll never hear the end of it

Clive

[Zebra Woman]

Originally Posted by Clive Long

Don't apologise to Martin - it only encourages him

I'm actually jealous of him because I can't get the hang of those cross-post reference things - but don't tell him because we'll never hear the end of it

Clive

Shhhh me too.....I can't do cross-post reference thingys , and I don't know how to put smileys into rep comments either !

[RogerR]

I enjoy airsteps, with a skilled and consenting partner. I've also been tapped on the shoulder and reprimanded by a venue manager for doing a gentle seducer with a known dance partner!

I will ask a lady if I may throw her about Some say yes some say no and some ask what moves I intend. If we agree then if there is room at the time....

I like to think that I can lead a partner through the move right to standing her back on her feet. If the balance is there it will work safely, if not then I revert to something less hazardous.

There is a problem "assuming" with women because they may smile when happy and / or when Sh*t scared

Snip quoting Commis chef

watched the same man do drops on other women who smiled or grimaced through it.

[drathzel]

I remember the first time my permission was asked to be droped. I was sooo impressed that the person cared! I had been dipped and droped by partners before, however these all tended to be regular dance partners or people i had be taught the dip/drop with!

It has happened with a few good, aware dancers since but it does not happen often enough!

I was just thinking tho, why does the man always have to ask, but if women go around pronouncing they do dips then people who do not feel confident (or who are not very good) at them feel pressured to put them in.

I also think dips probably should not be put in your first dance with a partner! And if you want to dip them, then ask for another dance.

The above is IMHO and please feel free to argue, contradict or advise me!

[RogerR]

If a first dance with a girl feels good and well balanced then I will ask for another, and may suggest more adventurous moves. If my dance partner has her own life partner then I will offer to teach him to lead the move, if she wants, to deter them breaking each other trying it out at home

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Commis Chef

Sorry to be an ill informed newcomer.

I only grumble because this is one of those subjects that keeps coming back time and time again, so I get this terrible sense of deja vu. Any moment now, some guy is going to post suggesting that women "just say no" to dangerous dancers. By now, it's almost inevitable.

Anyway, go browse around the archives - follow the links, or use the search facility up top of the page, or both. In amongst all the repetition and flimflam, there've been some stonking posts on the subject, and you'll find answers to most of the usual questions.

Originally Posted by Commis Chef

what did you learn from them?

Mostly, I just got real glad that I don't do drops.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by animaltalk

But I tend to feel my way with a new lady - 1st dance - Shoulder leans, and a gentle 1st move seducer. 2nd dance small dropkick, bigger seducer.
I take it slowly, and feel for any resistance - at which point I abort the move - hopefully so subtly she hasn't noticed
And then ask her.

And big drops/aerials just with long term partners on empty beaches/parks.

Should we always ask - or is the above approach acceptable

NTV

Interesting point. I don't think many guys ask me about doing dips or drops - but I have noticed the above approach. If a guy does a series of moves and can work out from those if I am comfortable with them and if he can move on to other moves, then that seems to work OK with me. (The same applies in my book with the more UCP moves).

Which method - asking verbally or sensing through the progression of the dance - do other women prefer/men practice? (Hmm, would this make an interesting poll?)

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

<< snip >>
Any moment now, some guy is going to post suggesting that women "just say no" to dangerous dancers. By now, it's almost inevitable.

too late - I did it

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Anyway, go browse around the archives - follow the links, or use the search facility up top of the page, or both. In amongst all the repetition and flimflam, there've been some stonking posts on the subject, and you'll find answers to most of the usual questions.

Well therein lies the distinction between forum old-timers and newies. I like Gadget's "the forum is like a pub" analogy - must rep him for that (apologies if it was someone else's analogy). In a pub the same old stories are recounted and the same old arguments regurgitated. But there is no facility to ask "Let me see. What did Lawrence in the Rose and Crown say about this subject in October 2002?". Just because people can search the forum doesn't mean they will or even want to. The forum can be a reference book - and I take my hat off to Martin and David F who act as guides - but a lot of people just pop for in for a chat - even if it does wander off to the merits of Boiled Beef and Carrots in the middle of a discussion about slippery dance floors (guilty, guilty, guilty)
All my "response to Martin" posts seem hostile. So let me give him a big kiss to show how I really feel mmmm . there.

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Mostly, I just got real glad that I don't do drops.

The world is a poorer place as a result.

Clive

[Zuhal]

Originally Posted by Martin Harper

Mostly, I just got real glad that I don't do drops.

Martin Harper

Originally Posted by Clive Long

The world is a poorer place as a result.

Clive

I generally do not do drops either but I make several exceptions;
with my fly weight partner
with someone I have assessed the ability of over a workshop or w/e and it is appropriate to the music

AND their ability and balance has to be in proportion to their stature.

That said 95% of my dancing has no drops or dips.

Zuhal