What should a beginners class offer ?

[stewart38]

What should a beginners class consist of

The following quotes got me thinking how that class has changed over the years

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Beginners can always ignore style tips and guy spins if they want to, so that's just a matter of good presentation.

Originally Posted by TheTramp

Occasionally. It should be noted however, that where there are 5 moves, this includes the 'in and out'. Which isn't really a move.

So do we have

2005 ...guy spins, frequent mention of style, footwork. Sometimes 5 moves, even some strange Aussie moves.

1995 Here is how you 'hold the hand', men you lead ,4 basic moves no foot work etc etc

Have we over complicated it for beginners , increasing numbers would suggest not but no idea how many new people dont come back because they find it too hard?

[MartinHarper]

I don't see that it's wildly complicated for a beginner to occasionally hear something like "men - if you've been coming a while, you can spin as well, if you like".

[Russell Saxby]

Originally Posted by stewart38

What should a beginners class consist of

The following quotes got me thinking how that class has changed over the years

So do we have

2005 ...guy spins, frequent mention of style, footwork. Sometimes 5 moves, even some strange Aussie moves.

1995 Here is how you 'hold the hand', men you lead ,4 basic moves no foot work etc etc

Have we over complicated it for beginners , increasing numbers would suggest not but no idea how many new people dont come back because they find it too hard?

Out of curiosity which of the beginners moves are you refrring to as 'stranage Aussie moves'???

Russell

[David Bailey]

From what I dimly recall, there's much more structure in the 2005 ceroc beginner's classes than the 1995 ones - which seems plausible, in that ceroc management aren't dumb and refine and improve their systems as time goes on.

So there's now, I believe, an extremely strict script that the teachers have to follow, with a rotation of moves each week for N weeks (4? I dunno...). And when I say "script" I do mean pretty much that - each move is described the same way, and is usually memorised - I'm constantly impressed how the teachers do this, I'd forget everything.

Of course, the inner workings of these things are hidden from mere mortals, so this is just observation and conjecture on my part.

However, it's clear that
<business>the purpose of a beginner's class is to maximise new starters and to minimise dropoff rates (recruitment and retention). Anything that serves these purposes is good, anything that doesn't is bad </business>

So, it's good to minimise (gloss over) any difficulties, give the impression that "You'll be dancing ceroc in 45 minutes", and so on. And I can't see that trying to impart any style advice, for example, fits these goals.

Therefore, any suggestions we might make would need to fit these criteria to be realistic. I know, dash of cold water, boring old fart....

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Russell Saxby

Out of curiosity which of the beginners moves are you refrring to as 'stranage Aussie moves'???

Russell

The ones that are not uk beginners moves , it when a teacher adds there own variation usually a odd awkward type hand move , often im afraid talk by guest teachers with accents pertaining to the southern hemisphere

[ellen24]

Referring to the comment about how times have changed over the past 10 years, I'm sure people's attitudes have changed too. There are a lot more social activities available now then there were 10 years ago, and people's attitudes to try new activities and hobbies are improving.

The first time I came to ceroc I stayed right till the end and I couldn't wait for the next time! I'd never danced before and I found the beginners class quite challenging. This was all new to me but nevertheless the beginner's revision class really helped, although I must admit that when I came the following week I'd forgotten all the moves!

So as far as I'm concerned I think the beginners classes are fine as they are. They have a variety of moves every week and some are repeated which makes it easier, and there's always plenty of opportunity to go over the moves during freestyle.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by ellen24

Referring to the comment about how times have changed over the past 10 years, I'm sure people's attitudes have changed too. There are a lot more social activities available now then there were 10 years ago, and people's attitudes to try new activities and hobbies are improving. :

Yes those old oil lamps to keep us going and a shilling on the door those were the days

Originally Posted by ellen24

The first time I came to ceroc I stayed right till the end and I couldn't wait for the next time! I'd never danced before and I found the beginners class quite challenging. This was all new to me but nevertheless the beginner's revision class really helped, although I must admit that when I came the following week I'd forgotten all the moves! :

A very good point the revision class something they didnt have 'back then'

[ellen24]

sorry if my previous post made some people sound really 'ancient' I just meant that when I was a teenager I never knew anyone that went to these sorts of activities so perhaps there wasn't much opportunity or people just never had the sense to find something like ceroc more fool them hehe

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by ellen24

sorry if my previous post made some people sound really 'ancient' I just meant that when I was a teenager I never knew anyone that went to these sorts of activities so perhaps there wasn't much opportunity or people just never had the sense to find something like ceroc more fool them hehe

No worries there are people on this forum that can remember the 70s (1870s)so I was only kidding

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Yes those old oil lamps to keep us going and a shilling on the door those were the days

You had oil lamps??? We were lucky to get... Oh, you know the rest.

[tsh]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So, it's good to minimise (gloss over) any difficulties, give the impression that "You'll be dancing ceroc in 45 minutes", and so on. And I can't see that trying to impart any style advice, for example, fits these goals.

Is it better for things like style advice to come from the teacher or from the less tollerant of the non-beginners though?

Sean

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by tsh

Is it better for things like style advice to come from the teacher or from the less tolerant of the non-beginners though?

Style is a matter of taste, so it should come from fellow dancers and teachers, so that people are exposed to a wide variety of different opinions, and we don't end up with as many cookie-cutter dancers.

[tsh]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Style is a matter of taste, so it should come from fellow dancers and teachers, so that people are exposed to a wide variety of different opinions, and we don't end up with as many cookie-cutter dancers.

You've missed my point... If the reason the teachers say nothing about style is because the book says to keep the class simple, the end result may be more confusing if there is a different message coming from the floor.

I agree that there is plenty of scope for encouraging the beginners to learn from the teachers, the taxis and the regular dancers though.

Sean

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by tsh

Is it better for things like style advice to come from the teacher or from the less tollerant of the non-beginners though?

Hmmm, dunno - I don't even know that Ceroc teachers should give style advice, it's such a personal thing, you develop your own style... Maybe "meta-style" advice, but again we get back to the "that's what workshops are for" mantra.

[bigdjiver]

Our local Ceroc tachers are always giving beginner and intermediate level style tips.

[Wendy]

The beginner class needs to stay very simple IMO. Brand new beginners start every week. (So it's a bit like teaching a primary 1 class and new 5 year-olds start every day so you have to treat them ALL they way they were treated on their first day and teach them the same thing over and over.) And in many ways that's crap for those who have been coming for several weeks but there you go - and they must have survived the first lesson cos they are back ! Many people do the classes for years anyway so they must be doing them for reasons other than simply learning the moves.

Just thinking that those doing the revision class could be split into groups based on how long they have been dancing so that one taxi could introduce style tips or give lead/follow advice to the more experienced beginners while another could stick to the basics ??? I sometimes feel that I give too much information but I also don't want to just do a repeat of the class they've just had. (They seem to go away happy !) The revison class also gives me the chance to address the women more as I feel the class is directed almost solely at the men.

Wx

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Wendy

Just thinking that those doing the revision class could be split into groups based on how long they have been dancing so that one taxi could introduce style tips or give lead/follow advice to the more experienced beginners while another could stick to the basics

That sounds like what they're doing in Oz, calling it an Improvers' class or whatever - I think it'd be a good idea, allows flexibility to focus on style tips. But what do I know... (that's a rhetorical question )

As for style, there's a difference between "tips" and "advice" to my mind.

"Tips" are things like spooting while spinning, neatness of footwork, lead / follow techniques, stuff like that, the basic building blocks if you want. Essential, should be taught, wish someone had taught me that

"Style advice" would be something like, I dunno, "don't bounce so much". A different kettle of fish, and I'm not sure about this - some dancers are more bouncy than others, and we shouldn't try to crush individuality, that very individuality is what makes MJ so great for me, it's so adaptable.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

"Tips" are things like spooting while spinning, neatness of footwork, lead / follow techniques, stuff like that, the basic building blocks if you want. Essential, should be taught, wish someone had taught me that

Interesting if we say neatness of footwork should be included in a beginners, i dont even know what spooting is

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Interesting if we say neatness of footwork should be included in a beginners,

Don't think I said that style tips were for beginners, more for improvers - but hell, why not - "big steps" are one of the classic beginner problems after all.

Originally Posted by stewart38

i dont even know what spooting is

It's like spotting, but for people who can't spellll...

[Wendy]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

But what do I know... (that's a rhetorical question )

Loads I'm sure and that was a rhetorical answer

Originally Posted by DavidJames

"Style advice" would be something like, I dunno, "don't bounce so much"

I give advice like " if the guy grips you too hard with his thumb then bite his hand"

Wxx