MJ Competitions: why bother?

**David Bailey** · 26th-April-2005, 03:59 PM

Semi-continuing the competition snobbery thread (where, ahem, a certain person says "I'll never enter a competition")l: are MJ competitions a good idea?

This may sound silly given how many competitions are around now, but here's my thoughts:

1. MJ is a social dance; the fun I get from MJ is meeting lots of people, and dancing with them, and enjoying myself. I try to improve my dancing, but I'm not aiming to be The Best Dancer Ever - probably a good thing too

I don't plan to enter competitions, or watch them unless I have to, as tat would distract me from valuable enjoying-myself time. If others are similarly-inclined, competitions may have a negative effect on dance promotion...

2. MJ is a Mickey Mouse dance, we all know that; it doesn't have the underlying roots, structure or discipline to clearly define what is Good and Bad technique. You can pretty much do any dancing form and call it Modern Jive. So judgement in these areas of relative ability is much more subjective than for other dances, and a lot of the time you're comparing apples and oranges (or apples and beer). So I'm not sure how much value there is in such judgements - technique is undefined, it's all choreography and chemistry.

3. MJ competition dancing is (I believe) very different from the social dancing version, there are lots of specialised routines / moves, between two people who've been practicing for weeks / months / years beforehand. So the amount watchers can learn from watching competitions is limited, as you won't be able to apply moves / technique to your own dancing.

So, why bother? Why not just have fun and dance socially in MJ - if you want to compete, why not try a different dance form?

Mary · 26th-April-2005, 04:37 PM

Oh dear, you have opened Pandora's box! This kind of discussion does seem to crop up at regular intervals, and I guess it's horses for courses and there a widely differing opinions, all equally valid.

However, I will start the ball rolling, but be prepared to be pounced upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So, why bother? Why not just have fun and dance socially in MJ - if you want to compete, why not try a different dance form?

Why?

And I would hope the effort I put into learning and improving (which I enjoy) helps improve my social dancing skills, and hence gives more pleasure to the people kind enough to dance with me.

M

TheTramp · 26th-April-2005, 04:38 PM

1. That's great that you enjoy MJ for those reasons. And I hope that you carry on enjoying MJ for those reasons. Other people enjoy MJ for other reasons. Why try to limit it to the reasons that you enjoy it for. It can be different things to different people, as it currently is being. There are lots of people who think the way you do. I fail to see why would competitions have a negative effect on dance promotion though. Or is it important to you that people only do MJ the way that you want them to do it. So, if people are enjoying it for other reasons, this makes you unhappy?

2. A trifle harsh I feel. Not to mention insulting. I do tend to agree with you that judging is a lot more subjective that another form of dance - which is why there's always much debate about the people who do well at them. But as long as you accept that when you enter, is it really a problem? And if the people who enter competitions are enjoying themselves, then again, why is it a problem?

3. Quite possibly. I would say that competition MJ is more structured than social MJ - although, you seem to be arguing against your 2nd point here. I disagree that you can't learn much from watching competitions. But there's still lots that you can apply from competitions in terms of moves and style points. And I have to say that I know a lot of people who've improved their dancing because they've had the focus for working for competitions - that's their social dancing, as well as their competition dancing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So, why bother? Why not just have fun and dance socially in MJ - if you want to compete, why not try a different dance form?

Why not bother. It appears that MJ can be both. And many people enjoy either watching, or taking part in a competition. Why remove that enjoyment factor for those people. You obviously don't. So don't go. What's the problem?

**David Bailey** · 26th-April-2005, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

So, if people are enjoying it for other reasons, this makes you unhappy?

Of course - I'm an official Miserable Old Git, and I'll soon have the T-shirt to prove it. My point is that, judging from conversations I've had, including with good dancers and forumites, I believe
- a few people are extremely keen on them (great)
- some more are indifferent / uninterested
- some more don't really like the idea (although that "group" could be just me

)
(And admittedly I don't know that there are any, myself included, who actually loathe them)

Of course, the rabid enthusiasts will make more noise than the mild dislikers - doesn't mean that comps are wildy popular. So I thought I'd stick up for the quiet ones, 'coz I'm just a hero...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

2. A trifle harsh I feel. Not to mention insulting.

That's pretty much a direct quote from a certain very high-up Ceroc person. Doesn't mean I don't love the dance, but let's not make it what it isn't. I'm a big fan of Mickey Mouse...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

3. Quite possibly. I would say that competition MJ is more structured than social MJ - although, you seem to be arguing against your 2nd point here.

"Consistency is the hobgoblin of tiny minds"
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes"

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

I disagree that you can't learn much from watching competitions. But there's still lots that you can apply from competitions in terms of moves and style points. And I have to say that I know a lot of people who've improved their dancing because they've had the focus for working for competitions - that's their social dancing, as well as their competition dancing.

You could say the same (more so) about any exhibition. BTW, I like exhibitions - but then they only take up 10-15 minutes of time, not the 1-2 hours of competition time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

What's the problem?

I guess I'm just a little bored with competition talk, and with trying to dance around people practicing routines - and I wanted to put a contrary view....

TheTramp · 26th-April-2005, 05:08 PM

Well. Obviously enough people enjoy them to make all the people who run competitions do so. If only a few people were turning up each time, then it's unlikely that organisations would keep on running them.

I still can't quite see why anyone would actually 'dislike' them. You can be disinterested, and not wanting to go, absolutely, can't disagree with that. But to dislike them serves what purpose? Stopping other people enjoying themselves? I'll chip in towards your t-shirt

Most competitions are held on a full day. So, you just don't go. Competitions that are held as 'fun' events for part of an evening, are usually over pretty quickly. The main exception being the Jive Masters, but again, you know what you're letting yourself in for if you go to that, so just don't go if you don't like the idea!

Incidentally, I can imagine which 'high-up' person made the comment. And I find it just as insulting coming from him. Or her. Whether or not you like Mickey Mouse is immaterial, it's the accepted meaning behind the words that I don't like. Yes, MJ isn't anywhere near as structured as the dancing that the 'high-up' person I'm thinking of did. It's much more of a social dance, and many people enjoy it for being that. And I'm sure that if the 'high-up' person was making a living out of the dance, that he'd hate to hear it that way described on the high street. After all, it's not really a great selling point is it - Hey, we're going to do some Mickey-Mouse dancing tonight, do you want to come and try it with us?? Not going to entice along many new people really is it (apart from those with maybe a mouse fetish??).

**Chicklet** · 26th-April-2005, 05:09 PM

I have travelled miles at some expense to four and am flying down this weekend to watch. I probably won't dance much all day. That isn't a negative point to me at all. I want to see what happens, the dancing, the outfits, the joy a lot of people get out of "going for it", catching up, however vaguely

with people I see very rarely but who's company I enjoy.
I have taken part in one competition and thoroughly enjoyed the buzz. I would do it again, given someone who wanted to do it with me, with whom I enjoyed dancing and who enjoyed dancing with me...I loose no sleep over the fact that I'm not competing in this one.

I believe there are hundreds like me all over the country.

Most of all I am a great believer in variety of activity being the key to a happy life...so I put dance comps up there with oooh, er, soft porn on the telly and Macdonalds, wouldn't want them every day, but great fun for a change.

...and recognise that there are plenty of people for whom neither would be fun at any time...I do hope these people don't go and try and spoil the day for others by complaining that it's not their thing and trying to elicit an agreement.

**Lynn** · 26th-April-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicklet

I have taken part in one competition and thoroughly enjoyed the buzz. I would do it again, given someone who wanted to do it with me, with whom I enjoyed dancing and who enjoyed dancing with me...I loose no sleep over the fact that I'm not competing in this one.

I believe there are hundreds like me all over the country.

I'm one of the hundreds!

(Though if I was travelling to a comp - and I have to travel some distance to anything in MJ that I'm not actually organising - I would go in for DWAS/Lucky Dip for the fun of taking part.)

Gladrags · 26th-April-2005, 05:26 PM

Taking the thread in a partly different direction, has anyone got any ideas why this weekends festivities are being so poorly attended in terms of those dancing in the competitions?

According to the Ceroc Champs website (as of now), of the 160 places available in the Open, Advanced, Intermediate and Old Git Categories (20,40,80 & 20), approximately half only (84) are taken up (13, 15, 42, & 14).

Is it advertising, are some bigger general opinion? Any thoughts?

Katie · 26th-April-2005, 05:39 PM

Maybe, it would be better to answer the "why bother?" question after a dance competition - usually there's a great buzz on the forum, lots of luvvie posts, praise and debate. Complaints tend to be made with regard to the venue as opposed to the dancing.

With the Ceroc Champs at the weekend, there are many dancers who are training hard and sometimes they probably think "why bother" especially when they're having an "off day", but when it comes to the actual day, i'm sure the majority of competitors are reminded why they compete (great atmosphere, lots of friends supporting you, chance to show off, look beautiful, etc etc)......well......up until the results anyway

**Will** · 26th-April-2005, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladrags

Taking the thread in a partly different direction, has anyone got any ideas why this weekends festivities are being so poorly attended in terms of those dancing in the competitions?

According to the Ceroc Champs website (as of now), of the 160 places available in the Open, Advanced, Intermediate and Old Git Categories (20,40,80 & 20), approximately half only (84) are taken up (13, 15, 42, & 14).

Is it advertising, are some bigger general opinion? Any thoughts?

The figures you're seeing on the Website are wrong.

I'm not sure if this is because they haven't been updated or whether they only take into account entries that have been made on-line.

For example, I spoke to Bradders earlier today and he told me that the Open Freestyle is totally sold out! I think that there is still some space in other catagories, but I wouldn't hang about - it ain't as much as the website would suggest!

See you there

Will

bigdjiver · 26th-April-2005, 05:56 PM

I first saw Nigel & Nina, Rena, and David & Lily at a comp, along with many others who have and have inspired and instructed me by their examples.

From that perspective - stupid question, but

**Gus** · 26th-April-2005, 06:44 PM

Rather than post them all again ... try having a look at the Dance Competitions are Evil thread from 2003 (was it really that long ago?

) .... sorry .... still haven't sussed out how to link to an old thread

**DavidB** · 26th-April-2005, 06:55 PM

I'm not going to persuade you to change your mind. Whether you like comps or not is up to you. I know you are not alone. I just want to pick up on a couple of points.

Is MJ a Mickey Mouse Dance
THe only thing MJ doesn't have is a single recognised standard of what is the best way of doing it. Instead it has several different ways that have been shown to be good, and no restriction on other good ways being introduced. It also has a lot of ways that range from 'not quite so good' to 'downright dangerous'.
That does not make it impossible to judge. I apply exactly the same principles to judging MJ that I would for judging any other partner dance form - Technique, Timing and Teamwork.

- Technique is still the easiest thing to judge on, because so few people have good technique. And the stress of competition dancing exaggerates any mistakes. I generally look for lead & follow, and individual quality of movement.

- I define MJ by its timing, and specifically its emphasis on downbeats. As a result I don't believe you can do anything and call it MJ. (eg Lindy is not MJ done to Swing music, on a different beat, with footwork. It is Lindy.) This timing gives MJ its structure. Like any dance you can bend this structure - especially to fit the music, but it is still there. Bend it too far and it breaks.

- Teamwork is how well you dance together. THis is the reason why so many couples practice.

MJ Competition Dancing is different
Yes - I would agree. It is focussed far more on looking good rather than feeling good. This has a lot of consequences - eg learning which moves you do look the best, not repeating them too often, not surprising your partner etc. However I find there is a lot that people can take from competition dancing into social dancing. The technique is the same. Most of the moves can be led in freestyle (with the obvious exception of aerials and drops).

Daisy · 26th-April-2005, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

1. That's great that you enjoy MJ for those reasons. And I hope that you carry on enjoying MJ for those reasons. Other people enjoy MJ for other reasons. Why try to limit it to the reasons that you enjoy it for. It can be different things to different people, as it currently is being. There are lots of people who think the way you do. I fail to see why would competitions have a negative effect on dance promotion though. Or is it important to you that people only do MJ the way that you want them to do it. So, if people are enjoying it for other reasons, this makes you unhappy?

2. A trifle harsh I feel. Not to mention insulting. I do tend to agree with you that judging is a lot more subjective that another form of dance - which is why there's always much debate about the people who do well at them. But as long as you accept that when you enter, is it really a problem? And if the people who enter competitions are enjoying themselves, then again, why is it a problem?

3. Quite possibly. I would say that competition MJ is more structured than social MJ - although, you seem to be arguing against your 2nd point here. I disagree that you can't learn much from watching competitions. But there's still lots that you can apply from competitions in terms of moves and style points. And I have to say that I know a lot of people who've improved their dancing because they've had the focus for working for competitions - that's their social dancing, as well as their competition dancing.

Why not bother. It appears that MJ can be both. And many people enjoy either watching, or taking part in a competition. Why remove that enjoyment factor for those people. You obviously don't. So don't go. What's the problem?

Arn't you meant to be revising or something.

I'll have to put my teachers hat on. Where's my cane?!!!

Clive Long · 26th-April-2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisy

Arn't you meant to be revising or something.

I'll have to put my teachers hat on. Where's my cane?!!!

and after you have dealt severely with Trampy you can be strict with me ...

**Lynn** · 26th-April-2005, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus

Rather than post them all again ... try having a look at the Dance Competitions are Evil thread from 2003 (was it really that long ago?

) .... sorry .... still haven't sussed out how to link to an old thread

Dance Competitions are Evil
Now, like Trampy, I'd best get on with the studying...

**David Bailey** · 26th-April-2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus

Rather than post them all again ... try having a look at the Dance Competitions are Evil thread from 2003

Nothing new under the sun... Hell, I thought I'd done a thorough search - my apologies. Allow me to provide this link. I didn't copy you Gus, honest...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicklet

I put dance comps up there with oooh, er, soft porn on the telly and Macdonalds, wouldn't want them every day, but great fun for a change.

...and recognise that there are plenty of people for whom neither would be fun at any time...

Boy, gotta love that analogy

I'll think of it next time I'm watching Channel 5 at 11pm with my Big Mac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicklet

I do hope these people don't go and try and spoil the day for others by complaining that it's not their thing and trying to elicit an agreement.

I'd not want to stop people doing anything - as a matter of fact, I'm not that anti-comps, I could even be persuaded that DWAS-ish comps fit well with the MJ ethos. But, I've heard a lot of people express anti-comp sentiments, although none in this forum.
David the Balancer, I shall be known as

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidB

( lots of good points )

Is MJ a Mickey Mouse Dance

OK, that one was a silly comment, and possibly insulting - I apologise unreservedly, to quote John Cleese.

Perhaps I should have phrased it as "MJ is a dance with inherent strengths (ease of learning, familiarity of movements, minimal footwork) which appeal in this country, but which can translate into structural weaknesses when in a competitive or showcase environment".

That's what I'd have said, but my post was getting very long as it was, and I wanted it to be noticed. Well, at least I've achieved that

MartinHarper · 26th-April-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

I'm not aiming to be The Best Dancer Ever

Folks who enter competitions are not necessarilly aiming to become "the best" competition dancers. Folks who don't enter competitions may be aiming to become "the best" social dancers. To me, that seems more about ambition than anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp

To dislike (competitions) serves what purpose?

I wasn't aware that likes and dislikes had to serve a purpose to be valid...

Personally, I dislike fixed partner choreographed modern jive - whether that be in a competition, a showcase, or a freestyle.

**David Bailey** · 26th-April-2005, 08:29 PM

26th-April-2005, 03:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
David Bailey Formerly known as DavidJames Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Norf Lundin Posts: 14,351 Status: Yes Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 8 Rep.: 3872	MJ Competitions: why bother? Semi-continuing the competition snobbery thread (where, ahem, a certain person says "I'll never enter a competition")l: are MJ competitions a good idea? This may sound silly given how many competitions are around now, but here's my thoughts: 1. MJ is a social dance; the fun I get from MJ is meeting lots of people, and dancing with them, and enjoying myself. I try to improve my dancing, but I'm not aiming to be The Best Dancer Ever - probably a good thing too I don't plan to enter competitions, or watch them unless I have to, as tat would distract me from valuable enjoying-myself time. If others are similarly-inclined, competitions may have a negative effect on dance promotion... 2. MJ is a Mickey Mouse dance, we all know that; it doesn't have the underlying roots, structure or discipline to clearly define what is Good and Bad technique. You can pretty much do any dancing form and call it Modern Jive. So judgement in these areas of relative ability is much more subjective than for other dances, and a lot of the time you're comparing apples and oranges (or apples and beer). So I'm not sure how much value there is in such judgements - technique is undefined, it's all choreography and chemistry. 3. MJ competition dancing is (I believe) very different from the social dancing version, there are lots of specialised routines / moves, between two people who've been practicing for weeks / months / years beforehand. So the amount watchers can learn from watching competitions is limited, as you won't be able to apply moves / technique to your own dancing. So, why bother? Why not just have fun and dance socially in MJ - if you want to compete, why not try a different dance form?

26th-April-2005, 05:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
TheTramp The Forum Legend Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 10,496 Status: No Status Rep Power: 6 Rep.: 1710	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother? Well. Obviously enough people enjoy them to make all the people who run competitions do so. If only a few people were turning up each time, then it's unlikely that organisations would keep on running them. I still can't quite see why anyone would actually 'dislike' them. You can be disinterested, and not wanting to go, absolutely, can't disagree with that. But to dislike them serves what purpose? Stopping other people enjoying themselves? I'll chip in towards your t-shirt Most competitions are held on a full day. So, you just don't go. Competitions that are held as 'fun' events for part of an evening, are usually over pretty quickly. The main exception being the Jive Masters, but again, you know what you're letting yourself in for if you go to that, so just don't go if you don't like the idea! Incidentally, I can imagine which 'high-up' person made the comment. And I find it just as insulting coming from him. Or her. Whether or not you like Mickey Mouse is immaterial, it's the accepted meaning behind the words that I don't like. Yes, MJ isn't anywhere near as structured as the dancing that the 'high-up' person I'm thinking of did. It's much more of a social dance, and many people enjoy it for being that. And I'm sure that if the 'high-up' person was making a living out of the dance, that he'd hate to hear it that way described on the high street. After all, it's not really a great selling point is it - Hey, we're going to do some Mickey-Mouse dancing tonight, do you want to come and try it with us?? Not going to entice along many new people really is it (apart from those with maybe a mouse fetish??).

26th-April-2005, 05:09 PM	#6 (permalink)
Chicklet Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Glasgow Posts: 2,467 Status: No Status Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 448	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother? I have travelled miles at some expense to four and am flying down this weekend to watch. I probably won't dance much all day. That isn't a negative point to me at all. I want to see what happens, the dancing, the outfits, the joy a lot of people get out of "going for it", catching up, however vaguely with people I see very rarely but who's company I enjoy. I have taken part in one competition and thoroughly enjoyed the buzz. I would do it again, given someone who wanted to do it with me, with whom I enjoyed dancing and who enjoyed dancing with me...I loose no sleep over the fact that I'm not competing in this one. I believe there are hundreds like me all over the country. Most of all I am a great believer in variety of activity being the key to a happy life...so I put dance comps up there with oooh, er, soft porn on the telly and Macdonalds, wouldn't want them every day, but great fun for a change. ...and recognise that there are plenty of people for whom neither would be fun at any time...I do hope these people don't go and try and spoil the day for others by complaining that it's not their thing and trying to elicit an agreement.

26th-April-2005, 05:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
Gladrags Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Wilmslow, Cheshire Posts: 28 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 16	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother? Taking the thread in a partly different direction, has anyone got any ideas why this weekends festivities are being so poorly attended in terms of those dancing in the competitions? According to the Ceroc Champs website (as of now), of the 160 places available in the Open, Advanced, Intermediate and Old Git Categories (20,40,80 & 20), approximately half only (84) are taken up (13, 15, 42, & 14). Is it advertising, are some bigger general opinion? Any thoughts?

26th-April-2005, 05:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
Katie Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hammersmith Posts: 211 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 135	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother? Maybe, it would be better to answer the "why bother?" question after a dance competition - usually there's a great buzz on the forum, lots of luvvie posts, praise and debate. Complaints tend to be made with regard to the venue as opposed to the dancing. With the Ceroc Champs at the weekend, there are many dancers who are training hard and sometimes they probably think "why bother" especially when they're having an "off day", but when it comes to the actual day, i'm sure the majority of competitors are reminded why they compete (great atmosphere, lots of friends supporting you, chance to show off, look beautiful, etc etc)......well......up until the results anyway Last edited by Katie; 26th-April-2005 at 05:47 PM.

26th-April-2005, 05:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
bigdjiver Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: bedford Posts: 3,836 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 784	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother? I first saw Nigel & Nina, Rena, and David & Lily at a comp, along with many others who have and have inspired and instructed me by their examples. From that perspective - stupid question, but

26th-April-2005, 06:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
Gus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 4,975 Status: No Status Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 965	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother? Rather than post them all again ... try having a look at the Dance Competitions are Evil thread from 2003 (was it really that long ago? ) .... sorry .... still haven't sussed out how to link to an old thread __________________ "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none." - William Shakespeare.

26th-April-2005, 06:55 PM	#13 (permalink)
DavidB The Oracle Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,140 Status: working too hard Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 1437	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother? I'm not going to persuade you to change your mind. Whether you like comps or not is up to you. I know you are not alone. I just want to pick up on a couple of points. Is MJ a Mickey Mouse Dance THe only thing MJ doesn't have is a single recognised standard of what is the best way of doing it. Instead it has several different ways that have been shown to be good, and no restriction on other good ways being introduced. It also has a lot of ways that range from 'not quite so good' to 'downright dangerous'. That does not make it impossible to judge. I apply exactly the same principles to judging MJ that I would for judging any other partner dance form - Technique, Timing and Teamwork. - Technique is still the easiest thing to judge on, because so few people have good technique. And the stress of competition dancing exaggerates any mistakes. I generally look for lead & follow, and individual quality of movement. - I define MJ by its timing, and specifically its emphasis on downbeats. As a result I don't believe you can do anything and call it MJ. (eg Lindy is not MJ done to Swing music, on a different beat, with footwork. It is Lindy.) This timing gives MJ its structure. Like any dance you can bend this structure - especially to fit the music, but it is still there. Bend it too far and it breaks. - Teamwork is how well you dance together. THis is the reason why so many couples practice. MJ Competition Dancing is different Yes - I would agree. It is focussed far more on looking good rather than feeling good. This has a lot of consequences - eg learning which moves you do look the best, not repeating them too often, not surprising your partner etc. However I find there is a lot that people can take from competition dancing into social dancing. The technique is the same. Most of the moves can be led in freestyle (with the obvious exception of aerials and drops).

26th-April-2005, 08:29 PM	#19 (permalink)
David Bailey Formerly known as DavidJames Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Norf Lundin Posts: 14,351 Status: Yes Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 8 Rep.: 3872	Re: MJ Competitions: why bother?