Missing Men

[John S]

At most venues I have been to (not just in Scotland), there are some nights when the ladies can outnumber the men quite significantly, with all the consequent problems.

Has anyone anywhere come up with a scheme to attract (and keep) the missing men, so that the numbers are balanced?

One thing that occurred to me was that when we attended our first Ceroc lesson we all filled in a form with name, address etc - what happened to that information, as it is potentially a useful database for a mailing list etc?

Over the years there must be hundreds of men in Scotland alone who have filled in one of these Ceroc forms but for whatever reason no longer attend - has anyone ever tried mailing them with a special "Welcome Back" discount offer? Even a return of 1-2% would probably justify the effort and would benefit everyone, including the current guys who are sometimes worked to death at present (even although we love it!)

And if it were mega-successful and there were suddenly too many men, then there could be a mailing list to attract the missing women as well! (unless the current ladies were quite happy with a surfeit of men for a change)

[DavidB]

I have managed to get several friends from work to Ceroc nights, and the main reason they stop is that they are already doing too many other things.

There are other reasons why men either never start dancing, or stop after a few lessons.

• It is still not considered a 'macho' thing to do
• The vast majority of men have never danced before, and find it difficult to learn
• Leading isn't easy
• Advanced dancers put some people off

A nice quote - a dancer was practicing a cabaret routine in a gym, and a friend asked why he danced, instead of working out. He replied "I would rather pick up women than weights."

David

[Fox]

I gotta agree with David here..

I think ceroc is initially difficult for men to learn as they have the lead, I think this puts men off, especially if they have never experienced a mind/body coordination activity before. I'm not sure what the answer is really, possibly a subtle statement from the teacher during a lesson ...dunno I'm guessing really.
But you can bet that as soon as there is football on then they will disappear ....

cheers
Fox

[Gus]

Similar problem down south.

Basicaly men suffer from;[list=1][*]Peer pressure[*]lack of co-ordination[*]easily damaged egos[*]aversion to looking a prat in public[*]lack of patience at learning new things[/list=1]


It amazes me that we get any men at all.

Ceroc HQ were supposed to be launching an advertising campaign specifically targeting men ... but nothing has happened yet

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
It amazes me that we get any men at all.

That probably sums up the situation pretty well... But what is interesting is that despite all the above, we do get plenty of men. Indeed compared to most other dance classes, we are positively swamped
For a while in fact at some classes, we had extra men!

Also, to put things in perspective, when we do get 10 / 15 extra women on a night, it normally happens at the busiest nights, where there will be 50 / 70 men on the floor doing the class, so when rotated, you get to dance 3/4 times before coming out for a couple of minutes.
There have been exceptions to the above, after successful busking campaigns or television programmes, when many new members have joined at once (and typically we will get 2 new women for every new man).

As to getting more men to come, we have tried a few schemes, I remember getting in touch with the Glasgow Fire Service and offering their members free passes.
Overall, I think that our strongest allies in recruiting more men are the women that come to Ceroc, they are the ones, getting their (male) friends to take that first step.

Generally, I have also found that once men have got hooked, they will come much more regularly to the night, while women will be more fleeting in their attendance...
This is a statistical generalization of course, so don't come and tell me that you have been at every Ceroc night for the last 2 years without missing one night / party On second thought, do tell me (but on another thread... How addicted are you?).

Franck.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Franck


As to getting more men to come, we have tried a few schemes, I remember getting in touch with the Glasgow Fire Service and offering their members free passes.

Franck.

errm.... surely this would increase the number of women in attendance...

Jayne

[Dreadful Scathe]

I'd disagree with David saying that the vast majority of men have never danced. Certainly my school had compulsory Country Dancing, not to mention the school discos and night clubs I progressed through. Most guys interest in dance tails off after that i suppose, but I would say the same about the majority of women.

I'd say the main reason theres less guys that dance (generally) is the not 'macho' perception David pointed out and the unwillingness to look a 'prat in public' as Gus pointed out.

Of course our lack of egos make us better men . And its true that advanced dancers will put off beginners ...at first - but once you know a few moves, theres a glimmer of hope that one day you could be as good as the great dancers, unless you lack confidence. Lack of confidence in their abilities is probably why a lot of men don't stick with it. I regularly make a prat of myself but i don't care .

Franck: After Jaynes comment, maybe a Firemans theme night might be in order .

Scathe

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I'd disagree with David saying that the vast majority of men have never danced. Certainly my school had compulsory Country Dancing, not to mention the school discos and night clubs I progressed through.

I should have said 'have never had any formal dance training'. There are a lot more ladies that men that have done ballet, tap, jazz or even aerobics. Any activity where you are told to do something to music helps when learning to dance.

My Primary school had compulsory ballet classes - for girls only. I went to an all-boys secondary school. Dancing was not encouraged...

Does the nightclub shuffle count as dancing? Does it help when learning Ceroc? It didn't in my case.

One difference in Scotland is that you have Scottish Country Dancing. As a born and bred Englishman, I have no real (reel?) idea how popular it is, but I would guess it is more so than English Folk and Country Dancing.

A marketing idea: one of the few times that most people learn to dance is when they get married. How about offering some free lessons to couples the month before they get married, on the condition they bring along their best man?

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
One difference in Scotland is that you have Scottish Country Dancing. As a born and bred Englishman, I have no real (reel?) idea how popular it is, but I would guess it is more so than English Folk and Country Dancing.

I am not sure if it makes much of a difference to Ceroc, but certainly, men in Scotland seem quite comfortable dancing at Ceilidhs (Scottish Country dances), probably because they can have a few pints and a good laugh in the process.
In France, most of us would learn som Rock'n Roll dancing in secondary school. It was a necessary skill for all if you wanted to get the girls at the discos. It seems that men in Latin countries have got the right idea vis-a-vis dancing.

Originally posted by DavidB
A marketing idea: one of the few times that most people learn to dance is when they get married. How about offering some free lessons to couples the month before they get married, on the condition they bring along their best man?

David

A pretty good idea, and I have had a few engaged couples contacting me for classes / workshops before their wedding, but overall, the tradition still seems that the first dance is a Waltz, especially as most weddings in Scotland will involve a Ceilidh band.

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jayne
errm.... surely this would increase the number of women in attendance...

Jayne

Indeed, and therein lies the root of the problem, you can never catch up. The more men we manage to recruit, the more women come to the classes... It is quite possible that a lot of women do not come very often because of a perceived lack of men
However, yesterday in Aberdeen, we had exact balance of men / women (about 45 of each), and this happens fairly regularly.

Franck.

[Bill]

I spoke to one of our new members last night who said her husband had come the previous week but wasn't going to come back because he wasn't getting the hang of it ( or words to that effect).

What most new people don't realsie, even though we keep telling them is that we all felt the same when we started. I almost gave up after my second week becuase I couldn't do the moves properly. - ok.......so I still can't but at least I have fun when I get them wrong !!!!!!!

It's a natural reaction and perhaps men have less patience than women

Pity we can't import some of that latin attitude to encourage more men so they see it as a positive thing to do. Unfortunately I can't think of anything else to persuade them to come along. Perhaps if there was another larger area for the beginners to practice with the taxi dancers out of view of the others ? DOn't know if it would help but some new dancers (male and female) can feel very conspicuous when they walk through the moves.

But the numbers were even last night so everyone had plenty of dances.

[Yvonne]

Originally posted by Franck
A pretty good idea, and I have had a few engaged couples contacting me for classes / workshops before their wedding, but overall, the tradition still seems that the first dance is a Waltz, especially as most weddings in Scotland will involve a Ceilidh band.

Franck.

I agree that the first dance at a wedding is usually a waltz, but I'm getting married in July and began 'dragging' my partner along to Ceroc in October, so that we could dance together at our wedding.

I'm hoping to do our first dance as a Ceroc move, but will need to practice with a long skirt first - don't imagine that I'll be able to do a lot of turns/spins with a long frock down to my feet. Of course, my partner will need to be informed first!

Perhaps you could try marketing Ceroc at wedding shows? Especially since weddings are becoming less traditional, i.e. chocolate wedding cakes (how I wish I'd gone for one of those!)

[John S]

Originally posted by Yvonne

I'm getting married in July and began 'dragging' my partner along to Ceroc in October, so that we could dance together at our wedding.

I'm hoping to do our first dance as a Ceroc move, but will need to practice with a long skirt first - don't imagine that I'll be able to do a lot of turns/spins with a long frock down to my feet. Of course, my partner will need to be informed first!

Go for it, Yvonne - I was at a wedding a year ago where the couple (who had met through Ceroc) danced Ceroc for their first dance - long frock notwithstanding.

All the guests thought it was brilliant, and far better than the usual embarrassed shuffle round the floor that passes for the bridal waltz.

[Stuart M]

Looking at this thread, I tried to relate back to my initial experiences. Like Bill, I almost didn't come back after the first night, but I had just enough willpower to persevere. And a lady I danced with on the first night (during the lesson) was a great help, told me to be patient, stick with it, and not worry about mistakes because everyone made them. Even then, it was only after about 6 or 7 nights that I began to enjoy it!

Only suggestion I can make, is that the ladies be more pro-active, and ask newcomers up to dance more often. Ask us blokes up to dance more often generally - the quicker that taboo is kicked into touch the better for everyone IMO. It is pretty difficult for the female taxis to do all the teaching of new guys, so any help they can get is great.

Maybe if more of the ladies made it a "mission" to ask one new bloke up for a dance each evening, it would help. Asides from the practise, it's always nice to feel wanted.

And please, be patient with new blokes - it's hard to explain just how difficult it really is to learn how to lead a dance! And never laugh or make a face - there are few things in the world more fragile than the male ego during the learning process...

[John S]

Originally posted by Stuart M
- there are few things in the world more fragile than the male ego during the learning process...

Not sure Stuart's last 4 words are necessary

Seriously, though, I agree with everything he says - I remember the encouragement given me by the ladies I first danced with, (even although it might have been given through gritted teeth ) One lady in particular always said it was in her best interests to dance with beginners, as in the long run that meant there would be more good male dancers.

Equally however, I remember the embarrassment I felt when one exasperated lady (not in Scotland) kept saying to me "Can't you hear the beat?" - which I couldn't (never mind dance to it!) - it really made me want to give up.

So be gentle with us, ladies, we can crumble very easily

[Franck]

Originally posted by John S
So be gentle with us, ladies, we can crumble very easily

Indeed, fragile egos (though some of us, myself included, might be accused of the opposite )
On the other hand, I have lost count of the number of times I have heard men telling off their partners on the dance floor: "No, you're not supposed to go that way...", "Did you not notice my signal???", and I have to grit my teeth and bite my tongue.
My point of view is that if your partner did not go the way you intended, then you need to revise your leading technique, or maybe you tried to do a move beyond your partner's abilities... Either way, it is the man's fault.

When teaching Beginners workshops, I often offer the following rules of Ceroc:

Rule 1: The man is always right.
Yes, you read it right, as the man is leading, he cannot be wrong, just creative with some moves. So ladies, relax and follow the man's lead, you might be surprise.

Rule 2: The man is responsible for anything that goes wrong (or right) on the dance floor.
This is the logical conclusion of rule 1...
Men, if your partner falls, or gets into an uncomfortable (or even painful) position, then it is your fault. You must adjust the moves you do to your own (leading) abilities and your partner's experience.


Rule 3: Always smile.
This will make you a better dancer immediately, and boost your partner's confidence and enjoyment of the dance.

So there you have it, the "top 3 rules"ª of Ceroc (according to me that is ).

Franck.

[John McAulay]

Rule 3: Always smile.
This will make you a better dancer immediately, and boost your partner's confidence and enjoyment of the dance.

Re Rule 3
I may not speak for all men but!
my smile function and my thought function are cross connected?
I find it hard to do both at the same time!

COULD be a new thread Auntie Franks Problem Page!

[Franck]

Originally posted by John McAulay
Re Rule 3
I may not speak for all men but!
my smile function and my thought function are cross connected?
I find it hard to do both at the same time!

I agree that it can be an effort to start with, but it does not need to be a sustained grin , the odd eye contact / smile is enough...
I am sure you will have noticed how much better things seem to go when your partner is smiling!

Franck.

[Heather]

It just occurred to me that it's the Aberdeen party on Saturday, and I haven't been up to a dance in Aberdeen for ages.
Sorry Franck, The Lovely Sheena and I will be giving it a miss this time again - we like to keep our knickers on when we're dancing!!!!! Sorry boys!!!

[Franck]

Originally posted by Heather
It just occurred to me that it's the Aberdeen party on Saturday, and I haven't been up to a dance in Aberdeen for ages.
Sorry Franck, The Lovely Sheena and I will be giving it a miss this time again - we like to keep our knickers on when we're dancing!!!!! Sorry boys!!!

It has been a while indeed, and you both will be missed (knickers or otherwise ! ).

I am still planning a visit to a Dundee party as soon as I can get a free week-end, and I will look forward to a dance or three .

Franck.