Leadable mini-aerials?

[MartinHarper]

From another thread:

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Lead for the First Move Jump: bring the lady in to the side, crouch a little and make a small lift.

Is the First Move Jump leadable? Are there any leadable moves which involve both the lady's feet leaving the ground?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Is the First Move Jump leadable? Are there any leadable moves which involve both the lady's feet leaving the ground?

I was talking to LilyB about this last night and it was fairly clear that we weren't using exactly the same definition of 'lead' and 'leadable'.

I showed her what I meant by a lead for that move and she told me point blank that she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body - even if that force was minimal and insufficient to execute the move without significant input from the lady.

So perhaps you should disambiguate the question by saying *exactly* what *you* mean by leadable. Otherwise I don't think this discussion is going to have much meaning.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I was talking to LilyB about this last night and it was fairly clear that we weren't using exactly the same definition of 'lead' and 'leadable'.

I showed her what I meant by a lead for that move and she told me point blank that she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body - even if that force was minimal and insufficient to execute the move without significant input from the lady.

So perhaps you should disambiguate the question by saying *exactly* what *you* mean by leadable. Otherwise I don't think this discussion is going to have much meaning.

The 'lead' you described for the 1st Mv Jump is a signal to me.

My definition of a lead is 'guidance', which is not the case for the 1st Mv Jump. Either the lady recognises the signal (your crouch) or it'll become a 1st Mv Throw by nature I have done a couple of them and they do sort of work but not really look elegantly. But again, it is a THROW more than a JUMP, which re-defines the move.

I would say there are air steps that you can 'lead' with pure strength (lifting the girl) but these still require that the girl has an idea of what may be desired once she has lost ground under her feet. So it is arguable to call it a proper lead. You may also refer to it as a neandertal picking up his lady for apre whatever If you LEAD you are essentially GUIDING. And that is not the case with air steps.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Andreas

The 'lead' you described for the 1st Mv Jump is a signal to me.

My definition of a lead is 'guidance'

Oh, well that's helpful - now just tell me exactly what you mean by 'guidance'!

[Donna]

Originally Posted by Andreas

The 'lead' you described for the 1st Mv Jump is a signal to me.

That sort of move does need a signal. Most of the lifts or drops in Jive require signals...like for e.g. first move into woman jumping up along side of man onto his hip...signal for that is the man taps his shoulder on the same side where he wants her to jump on. Of course this wouldn't work with an inexperience dancered and trying to force her up in the air can cause accidents. Before I started doing any dips, drops or mini aerials, the person I was doing them with would always take me through them first and show me the signals so then that way, he could lead me into them no problem.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Donna

That sort of move does need a signal.

It needs a signal, for instance, like a crouch and quick lift of the lady's hips. That's the kind of signal that indicates how she transitions into the start of the move. It's a special kind of signal - I know - let's call it a lead....

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Oh, well that's helpful - now just tell me exactly what you mean by 'guidance'!

Right, 'guidance' means you push/shove/pull the lady, which is incentive for her to DO the move. With air steps the ladies don't DO moves, they a re BEING DONE moves, so to speak. A lady can't DO the 1st Mv Jump, neither can the man make her do it. If the lady tries it on her own she'll never reach the high and parabel that you'd expect from the move. And as I explained previously, if the guy tries to make her do the move it'll turn the move into 'throw'.

You could argue that no drop can be led by this definition but I'd hold against it that all you do in a drop is stop the lady from killing herself. You guide her in the position of a drop, the lady can go there all by herself and a few of them can even hold 100% of their weight (which really kills every drop, btw). And all yu do then is stop her from hitting the floor.

---------------

I don't think, though, these definitions are what it is about. I can easily throw a girl onto my shoulder and if I am lucky she will make it a Supergirl. But, although I have put her there w/o her input, I'd still not call it a lead because it is not guidance and the move (if it becomes a Supergirl) will be accidental. The natural thing for the lady to do on my shoulder is collapse and scream. So I didn't really lead the move, even if my action resulted in it.

[Mary]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

It needs a signal, for instance, like a crouch and quick lift of the lady's hips. That's the kind of signal that indicates how she transitions into the start of the move. It's a special kind of signal - I know - let's call it a lead....

Gotta disagree on this one. If you can 'lead' something then you don't need a signal. Take the neck wrap thingy. In a class the man is taught to show his arm in a right-angle shape at shoulder level - this is a signal to the lady. Why should you need this signal when it's perfectly leadable without. All this teaching of signals should not be necessary if a move is taught how to be lead.

I have been led into all sorts of wierd and wonderful cool moves by some excellent leads up and down the country without the need for a prior signal. I have also been manhandled into some 'mini-aerials' without signals given by complete strangers, but would I call it leading?

Now, what is the difference between manhandling and leading?

I do have to 'fess up to resorting to some kind of signals with regular partners for certain tricksy moves, but there are some guys out there who can do same moves without signals.

M

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Oh, well that's helpful - now just tell me exactly what you mean by 'guidance'!

Maybe it's more helpful to the difference between a "signal" and a "lead". Being strictly honest, I'm not sure it's that easy to distinguish them - is raising your hand a signal for the girl to turn underneath, or is it a lead?

I think one key difference is general applicability. A lead relies on general principles - you might have to be taught to recognize the lead for a move, but once that's been done, there are lots of similar moves you can follow using similar ideas for the lead. For example, someone probably won't follow a backhander first time round, but once they know it, they can also do a short backhander, repeating backhander etc.

A signal is much more specific: "when you see A, you do B". There's no inference that "when you see A', you do B'". Generalising, there's also more of a feedback loop with a lead than a signal - signal tends to be "either you know it or you don't".

Finally, a lead should be much more resistant to the leader knowing more than you expect. If I lead a backhander, and the follow knows 5 variations, I still expect the backhander to work. If I give a signal, and the follow knows 5 moves with the same signal, all I can expect is chaos. It's all also context dependent - to some extent beginners often recognize leads as if they were signals rather than actually following.

In terms of aerials, I think you can lead things to a certain amount - you can certainly lead the woman to jump/deweight, for example. But you can't lead how she does it. With the first move jump, the only reason the lady jumps in that direction is (generally) because that's the only move she knows. There are a lot of other possibilities - but it all falls down unless the woman recognizies it as exactly that one move. In my opinion, that makes it a signalled move rather than a lead one.

Couple of specific reasons why aerials don't lend themselves to being lead:

• The risk factor: If you misunderstand the lead for a normal move, no-one really cares. If you misunderstand the lead for an aerial, you can be injured or even killed.
• Very hard to have a feedback loop: With a normal move, if the follow misunderstands, I can detect that and (usually) correct matters. With an aerial, once we commit, there is very little time or opportunity to correct things. Obviously once contact is broken, there's very little I can do at all.

[Trish]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Maybe it's more helpful to the difference between a "signal" and a "lead". blah blah blah

I agree with this generally. I have been "signalled" to do first move jumps and lap sits and things like half loops. Because most of the guys I dance with are in the Ceroc Central area, we're all generally speaking the same language - but I would still not commit to a move like this without checking with the guy first that this was what he meant. He might have learnt some other signal elsewhere and mean something different. Once I've danced with the guy often enough so that I'm used to his signals for these moves, then I'm happy to do them. With guys I don't dance with very often, I actually prefer a verbal signal like "jump" or whatever, just to make it crystal clear that that is what he wants me to do!

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body

Well, thanks for explaining to me where Lily is coming from. I disagree with that definition. If my partner is resting her hand lightly in mine, then I'm applying (light) force to (part of) her body. I don't believe that I am suddenly not dancing a lead/follow dance because of that.

For the purpose of discussion I would say that a lead is a signal to move in a certain way, or one of a small number of ways, that work on widely used ("generally applicable") principles of lead/follow.

Originally Posted by David Franklin

With the first move jump, the only reason the lady jumps in that direction is (generally) because that's the only move she knows.

Well, the girl is normally going forward before the jump, and the in the absence of any lead to alter her horizontal motion, I would expect her to continue going in that direction.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

Well, the girl is normally going forward before the jump, and the in the absence of any lead to alter her horizontal motion, I would expect her to continue going in that direction.

But motion is a vector quantity. The direction might not change, but she adds a big increase in her horizontal velocity (yes the man helps, but not that much!). If you look at all the various "mini" aerials starting from a first move, there's not a lot of difference in the motion just before the lift - but there's a big difference in the motion afterwards.

Now you might argue - "ah, but you can follow the man's lead to decide how high/far to jump". On one level this is defensible. I could see a group of people who practice the variations assiduously being able to distinguish those subtle differences in the fraction of a second before you go airborne. But in a standard MJ enviroment? Not a chance...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Andreas

A lady can't DO the 1st Mv Jump, neither can the man make her do it.

A lady can't do a first move on her own either - nor can the man make her do it. All moves require cooperation - not just Aerials. So I don't find that a very helpful distinction.

Originally Posted by DavidFranklin

A signal is much more specific: "when you see A, you do B"

so when I raise my hand to have the lady turn under it, and she sees me raise my hand and knows to turn - that's a signal then, not a lead?

I'm sorry but I think the reason you're all having such difficulty defining what's a lead and what's a signal is because the distinction is artificial. In which case the question about whether aerials can be 'lead' is a bit of a nonsense.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I'm sorry but I think the reason you're all having such difficulty defining what's a lead and what's a signal is because the distinction is artificial.

In my mind, a lead is a necessary part of each move, used to guide the movement of your partner, whilst a signal is anything added to that. Changing the lead will likely change the move, whilst it's perfectly possible to change a signal, just so-long as everyone knows what it means. Not doing the lead means the move will not happen. Not doing the signal may have lots of different results.

So, the silly "stop!" thing the some people do for the neckbreak (that Ceroc seems now to be abandoning?) is clearly a signal, as it's not a necessary part of the dance – it's perfectly possible to do this move without the signal.

Likewise, the tapping on the shoulder for a first move jump is a signal as it's not necessary in order to perform the move itself.

I'd say that the first move jump is lead-able up to the jump, but because the FM jump starts the same as a FM lap-sit (I think?) at this point the girl has to know where to put her legs during the jump. I'm not sure it's possible to communicate this in the lead, and so some visual or verbal signal is necessary.

Based on the risks if the signal is confused, I'd always go for a verbal signal, and wait until it has been clearly understood before attempting to lift anyone off the floor.

(Disclaimer: I have not yet tried any of the baby aerials I've been taught in a freestyle dance. So it's always possible I really don't know what I'm talking about.)

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

so when I raise my hand to have the lady turn under it, and she sees me raise my hand and knows to turn - that's a signal then, not a lead?

If that's all that happens, you could certainly argue that. But you do have the issue of feedback here. If she doesn't turn, I can move the hand back and around to induce her to turn. In principle you could do this with an aerial, but your reactions would have to be tens if not hundreds of times faster.

I'm sorry but I think the reason you're all having such difficulty defining what's a lead and what's a signal is because the distinction is artificial. In which case the question about whether aerials can be 'lead' is a bit of a nonsense.

I'm sorry, but I think you're desperately trying to use the grey area between the two to justify yourself. Grey areas are fine for lots of things, but a bit pointless when safety is on the line.

If the opinions of the various airsteps champions on here don't convince you, David and Sharon Savoy (3 x world exhibition champions, 3 x Blackpool exhibition champions) make it clear that they can't lead aerials safely. That's clear enough for me...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by ducasi

In my mind, a lead is a necessary part of each move, used to guide the movement of your partner, whilst a signal is anything added to that. Changing the lead will likely change the move, whilst it's perfectly possible to change a signal, just so-long as everyone knows what it means.

All right, as a definition that's consistent, matches at first glance most people's preconceptions of the difference, and quite possibly useful to boot.

Originally Posted by Ducasi

I'd say that the first move jump is lead-able up to the jump, but because the FM jump starts the same as a FM lap-sit (I think?) at this point the girl has to know where to put her legs during the jump.

So it's leadable as long as the follower doesn't know (or knows not to expect) any other moves that begin with a jump.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

If the opinions of the various airsteps champions on here don't convince you, David and Sharon Savoy (3 x world exhibition champions, 3 x Blackpool exhibition champions) make it clear that they can't lead aerials safely. That's clear enough for me...

(And you're resorting to quoting 'higher authority' - which may not be argued with - when you can't make your own case, which is always a cop-out.)

I don't really have a 'position' to 'justify' - I'm quite happy to be wrong here as anywhere. And I'm learning a lot from the debate.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

So it's leadable as long as the follower doesn't know (or knows not to expect) any other moves that begin with a jump.

Yes. But what are the chances you'll meet someone in a freestyle dance that you know for sure knows one, and only one, jump, and it's the same one that you are going to try to lead?

If your partner knows to expect only first move jumps and no other aerial, then either you are practising that move or you've agreed it in advance, which is, in effect, a verbal signal.

[LilyB]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I was talking to LilyB about this last night and it was fairly clear that we weren't using exactly the same definition of 'lead' and 'leadable'.

I showed her what I meant by a lead for that move and she told me point blank that she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body - even if that force was minimal and insufficient to execute the move without significant input from the lady. ....

I think maybe I didn't make myself very clear last night .

What I meant was that as soon as you lift the woman off the ground (doesn't matter how low or how little force is used) you have already performed the aerial maneouvre. If the lady catches on and helps you by holding herself well and tucking her legs up, you will be able to perform the aerial well. If she doesn't, then it will be badly executed. How well the move works therefore does not depend on how well it is