Dance or the Music

**Gus** · 31st-August-2005, 08:10 AM

Inspired a comments about the challenging music at Jango, got to thinking. What comes first in getting a dancer to the next level, Music or the dance? Does a dancer first have to be exposed to more interesting music, e.g. Gotan Project, or do they have to be exposed to more intensive teaching first?

Must admit to being split on the subject. I think my own recollection is that personally I found myself trying to modify the way I danced when I started being exposed to the non-standard music. My usual footwork/interpretation/body moves didn't seem to let me enjoy the new latin, club etc. music I was hearing. Somewhere along the line I morphed and came out with a different style of dancing...
OR
With the more complex music, the teaching I'd received at the better workshops, which had previously been learnt but not used, was suddenly given an avenue for expression. Like a sports car that has only been driven round town in 3rd gear, I was able to open up and finally get to use 5th gear.

SO .... which is it. Or does it vary from person to person

Its not just an idle question. It has practical implications. Hipsters and Cool Catz failed while they were trying to offer something that everyone apparently was crying out for. Jango is now the only bastion of this approach. Is the only way to get into this music just to keep on dancing to it till you 'get it' or is there a teaching process that gives you the technique first necessary?

Thoughts?

LMC · 31st-August-2005, 10:49 AM

Well, I was waiting for someone with more experience than me to pick up on what I think could be a fascinating discussion (or is that just me?) - but since no-one has yet...

Quote:

Originally Posted by gus

Does a dancer first have to be exposed to more interesting music, e.g. Gotan Project, or do they have to be exposed to more intensive teaching first?

Simple answer, owing to my lack of experience - there are some vague other thoughts floating around but need some inspiration before I can put them into words.

Enjoying some music, but being purely unable to dance to it is one of the things that has encouraged me to seek further teaching. Actually dancing to some of the more challenging stuff has improved my musicality (not hard, it was zero before, it's probably only 0.1 out of 100 now) - I'm finding it easier to mentally switch tempo (one day my feet will follow), hear breaks, etc.

But it's also just fun to bounce around the floor to something easy without having to think about it too deeply. That's because I'm a Grasshopper.

< where are ZW, Chef and Chris A? - will I get the popcorn out ready? >

Purple Sparkler · 31st-August-2005, 10:53 AM

I think it's dancing to the challenging music with a challenging partner (as in someone who really knows their stuff) that gets you up a notch- if you're dancing to a song with scope for musical interpretation (not all songs have this, IMHO)- breaks or an interesting/varied beat- with someone who knows how to take advantage of this, and you dance to that kind of music with that partner often enough, you begin to see where the breaks are, and get an idea of how musicality works. Then you begin to use what you're learning with other partners.

Chef · 31st-August-2005, 11:49 AM

To what Purpple Sparkler just said.

No popcorn needed.

Well this is how it happened for me. I used to go on Camber weekenders and do my arm waggling stuff up in the modern room and was a very happy bunny while doing it. Being so enthusiastic at that time I danced almost every track and was having a whale of a time until I got burnt out at about 1-2am. On my way back to the chalet I would go through the swing and blues room and just look in awe at the way that the dance was entwined with the music with these dancers. It was such a step up from what I was doing at the time that I just felt silly and way out of my depth when I was asked to dance by one of the dancers.

As I have gained skills I have been able to see where I can use them in conjunction with the music and grown to favour those peices of music more. That has made me want to go out and get to lessons and learn more. I think the dance skills and the more challenging music have gone hand in hand for me. One has fed the other. Being out of my comfort zone is often deeply frustrating but is now something that have come to look on as a good thing (as long as it is not all the time).

My personal feeling is that I need to feel inspired by a peice of music to really like dancing to it and to give of my best. I will dance to music that doesn't inspire me if I am asked to dance but the dance does not feel the same to me inside without that feeling of really liking the music.

This is why I now go to great lengths to seek out DJs that play the music of the style that I like and they also find new stuff that also maintains my interest. The good thing about this is that other dancers who also like the same stuff tend to be at the same venues. So when I am dancing I am often with someone on a similar wavelength and when not dancing I am talking to people that have similar tastes in music and dancing.

Without being exposed to the music and dancers of the blues room at Camber I would probably not have aspired to dancing like that. I had Ceroc to have fun with and other styles and venues to keep the intellectual interest up. There is a need for both for me.

**Lynn** · 31st-August-2005, 11:58 AM

At first for me it was the dancing - I saw people doing it and wanted to learn. About 4 weeks in I discovered this forum and that widened my perspective. About 6 weeks in I got frustrated with just learning moves and wanted to learn how to dance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef

Well this is how it happened for me. I used to go on Camber weekenders and do my arm waggling stuff up in the modern room and was a very happy bunny while doing it. Being so enthusiastic at that time I danced almost every track and was having a whale of a time until I got burnt out at about 1-2am. On my way back to the chalet I would go through the swing and blues room and just look in awe at the way that the dance was entwined with the music with these dancers. It was such a step up from what I was doing at the time that I just felt silly and way out of my depth when I was asked to dance by one of the dancers.

I had a similar experience the first time I went into the swing and blues room at Southport. I stood around watching, loving the music but hoping I wouldn't get asked up (I did though) as I wouldn't know what to do! It was the music and the connection with the music, the dancing being an expression of the music that I realised would meet my 'more than moves' need.

So I guess its the music that makes me want to learn how to improve my dancing to express it.

Almost an Angel · 31st-August-2005, 01:03 PM

Hmmm Dance or the Music?

Difficult question. I think as PS said it has to be a combination of both.

On the dance side, having a challenging piece of music with a partner who is able to challenge your dancing and push you to the next level is the ideal, kinda like looking for the dreamstate where you have this perfect dance, it's not necessarily the dance or the music but the combination of both. You both gain from the experience and the challenge. Personally I find this a huge benefit, it inspires me to try things I wouldn't ordinarily do within my dancing, and encourages me to improve my dancing by trying out new or different styles and trying even in some small way to be like some of the dancers I admire. Also the rise in the availability of more structured workshops specifically geared towards not gaining moves but actual interpretation has increased peoples exposure to the different dance styles.

On the music side, there are always those who are able to push the boundaries of the music played and there are always those dancers who will rise to the challenge of the music played, finding new and innovative ways of interpreting the music into the dance. This has been happenening for years, many of the dance forms have evolved from the change in the music style of that era. Take WCS the music has influenced the dance, OK the basic steps are the same but the music has pushed the boundaries of what can be achieved within the dance, and although is more obviously shown here is true for most dance styles.

Personally I love the challenge of interpreting a piece of music, seeking out new styles that can be incorporated, even watching how other people interpret the music into the dance and trying it out myself (even if I don't look as glamourous as they do).

For me music and dance are inextricably linked, they both contribute to the experience, the availability of more challenging music and more focused teaching adds to the experience, they combine together to achieve more than either would have done alone, and when combined with a challenging partner

.

My view is that taking a dancer to their own next level is a combination of both, they have to be able to both appreciate and to interpret the music. Be this through exposure to different types of music or exposure to more focused teaching to allow them room for growth within their dancing.

spindr · 31st-August-2005, 01:11 PM

Top priority isn't the dance *or* the music -- it's "the room" -- you need a good safe atmosphere to be able to concentrate on musicality rather than floor craft.

Then it's confidence -- being prepared to move outside of your "safety zone" and mess up (safely).

Then it's the music -- you have to keep in time, etcetera. Also helps if you have enough confidence to be able to stretch and compress -- and not to have to step every single count.

Then it's the dance -- that's just gives you more options to do to the music (if you aren't doing them to the music it's not dancing). Again enough confidence to trust your partner to follow/lead safely.

SpinDr

Ballroom queen · 31st-August-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus

OR
Its not just an idle question. It has practical implications. Hipsters and Cool Catz failed while they were trying to offer something that everyone apparently was crying out for. Jango is now the only bastion of this approach. Is the only way to get into this music just to keep on dancing to it till you 'get it' or is there a teaching process that gives you the technique first necessary?

Thoughts?

I don't think its fair to say Hipsters Failed. It was very sucessful for 3 years. An awful lot of venues wax and wane over the years, for me it was the Gardens (fulham), then it changed to the leopard lounge - it changed, we moved to going to cricklewood, then it changed, people come and go, then we moved to hipsters. ("We" being just a vague collection of people.)

*clevedonboy* · 31st-August-2005, 01:52 PM

It's the music man ....

Went to a forties do in Bristol couple of weeks ago and had confirmed to me something I "knew" - you can't MJ when it gets quick or slow. having had some blues lessons we were able to muddle through using a modified set of blues moves but I realised we were just messing around. So come the second week of September we'll be going to swing classes to learn how to do it properly.

ChrisA · 31st-August-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus

SO .... which is it. Or does it vary from person to person

I'm sure it does.

In my case, I'd become a confident intermediate, and had started to ask some of the better dancers to dance. The looks I got when I did nothing with the music started to sink into my consciousness (it took a while

- my heartfelt thanks to all those that put up with me

), and eventually I realised what the problem was.

Then it was a question of getting some proper teaching, which started at a weekender in a musicality class from Amir.

It then became a vicious circle. The more I could do, the more I wanted to do, so the more practice I got... so I got better, so I wanted even more. I've plateaued a bit at the moment, which is intensely frustrating, but I'm hoping the next phase of improvement is near.

The downside is that I've become extremely fussy about the music I dance to, and there are very few DJs that I know well in the south of England that I can rely on for a good night.

MartinHarper · 31st-August-2005, 02:15 PM

Excluding the 0.1% of the population who are naturals, good dancing requires competent teaching, but does not require "interesting" music. Real Dancers make the music they are dancing to sound interesting.

Most elements of good dancing can be learnt whilst dancing to joyously simple music. I guess folks here are taking it as read that "the next level" is going to be musical interpretation. Fair enough.

The music at standard MJ nights has potential for musical interpretation, for those who care to look, but doesn't force it. What will make someone look? It could be "challenging" music that forces musicality. It could be the inspiration of other dancers. It could be lessons in musical interpretation. Different folks take different routes.

CJ · 31st-August-2005, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clevedonboy

It's the music man ....

Went to a forties do in Bristol couple of weeks ago and had confirmed to me something I "knew" - you can't MJ when it gets quick or slow. having had some blues lessons we were able to muddle through using a modified set of blues moves but I realised we were just messing around. So come the second week of September we'll be going to swing classes to learn how to do it properly.

Andrew,

this post would suggest the dancing and not the music as you suggested.

I think the music can inspire you, but you need some technique to be able to step out the safety zone and progress, even if only a little...

*Andy McGregor* · 31st-August-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisA

The downside is that I've become extremely fussy about the music I dance to, and there are very few DJs that I know well in the south of England that I can rely on for a good night.

Firstly, the more I've DJd the more I've come to the conclusion it's all about the dancers. Your job is to play music the dancers enjoy. And at most nights that's music with a nice regular beat. Nothing wrong with that - although it can get a bit boring.

At some, very special nights, you know the dancers are after something a bit more unusual, or are they? IMHO they're after the usual interesting music with a few new 'interesting' tracks thrown in. Once you've got the musicality bug you need to know the music well - I've even reached the point where I have to know which version it is being played when I hear All that Jazz, Fever, Mack the Knife or In These Shoes, etc. And if it's not a version I know I sometimes wish that it was.

Which came first? Who cares? Just get up and dance, preferably with me

**David Bailey** · 31st-August-2005, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballroom queen

I don't think its fair to say Hipsters Failed. It was very sucessful for 3 years.

Absolutely

All venues go through peaks and troughs, everywhere. I'm firmly convinced that there's a group of, I dunno, Ten Cool People in London who somehow decide where the Cool Places are, go there for a while, then move on. I just wish I knew who they were, the bas*ards...

Anyway, from my experience, I know that Ashtons was popular, then struggled for a long time - it's now popular again. Similarly for Finchley.

Same for salsa - the Salsa Cellar in Crouch End has been going for 12 years at least to my knowledge - that's been packed and deserted several times over the years.

The more people do partner dancing, the more demand there will be for more advanced and different venues - look at the growth in weekenders compared to even a couple of years ago.

*clevedonboy* · 31st-August-2005, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock

Andrew,

this post would suggest the dancing and not the music as you suggested.

I think the music can inspire you, but you need some technique to be able to step out the safety zone and progress, even if only a little...

It's wanting to dance to the music is what I'm thrashing around trying to explain. I don't want to learn swing so i can Lindy Hop - I want to dance swing (yes even Lindy) so I can dance to the music better. Am I on the wrong thread - should I stick to keeping the limericks thread from being sent upstairs?

KatieR · 31st-August-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clevedonboy

It's the music man ....
.

Most definately... I find that if I am really moved by a song then my dancing is the better for it. If Im not inspired by what I am hearing then I just feel like I am going through the motions. There is nothing like dancing to a piece of music that really means something to you.. it takes me to another place. A happier one.

LMC · 31st-August-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clevedonboy

I want to dance swing (yes even Lindy) so I can dance to the music better.

Replace 'swing (yes even Lindy)' with more or less any dance style (especially blues, my next improvement target

) and I can relate to that.

Mambo #5 was played at a recent freestyle I went to, I picked a good partner - but could we both keep on beat? Could we hell (well, I couldn't). How I longed to be more proficient

at a more suitable style for that track than MJ (it seemed WCS-able to me, but I dunno...)

**David Bailey** · 31st-August-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewKid

(it seemed WCS-able to me, but I dunno...)

Err... it's a mambo. Therefore Latin. Salsa and Cha-cha would be fine, but I dunno if it's suite to WCS.

But then, I know nothing about WCS.

David Franklin · 31st-August-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Err... it's a mambo. Therefore Latin. Salsa and Cha-cha would be fine, but I dunno if it's suite to WCS.

Mambo #5 is just over 180bpm. Danced 'straight', that's very fast for a MJ track, but certainly not impossible. It would be very fast indeed for WCS. Kyle and Sarah have done WCS routines at 180bpm+, but they are insane...

Danced 'half-time', it's a bit too slow for MJ, but would be OK as a slow WCS. But I'd say the "feel" is totally wrong for a slow WCS.

Leave Mambo #5 to the salsa dancers, they have no taste anyhow...

[Can I have my popcorn now?]

**David Bailey** · 31st-August-2005, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Franklin

Leave Mambo #5 to the salsa dancers, they have no taste anyhow...

[Can I have my popcorn now?]

Nahh, you're probably right, judging from the tracks played at the average salsa night...

But as we're sexier than WCS-ers, who needs to be tasteful as well?

Mix of sweet and salted, please

31st-August-2005, 08:10 AM	#1 (permalink)
Gus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 4,975 Status: No Status Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 965	Dance or the Music Inspired a comments about the challenging music at Jango, got to thinking. What comes first in getting a dancer to the next level, Music or the dance? Does a dancer first have to be exposed to more interesting music, e.g. Gotan Project, or do they have to be exposed to more intensive teaching first? Must admit to being split on the subject. I think my own recollection is that personally I found myself trying to modify the way I danced when I started being exposed to the non-standard music. My usual footwork/interpretation/body moves didn't seem to let me enjoy the new latin, club etc. music I was hearing. Somewhere along the line I morphed and came out with a different style of dancing... OR With the more complex music, the teaching I'd received at the better workshops, which had previously been learnt but not used, was suddenly given an avenue for expression. Like a sports car that has only been driven round town in 3rd gear, I was able to open up and finally get to use 5th gear. SO .... which is it. Or does it vary from person to person Its not just an idle question. It has practical implications. Hipsters and Cool Catz failed while they were trying to offer something that everyone apparently was crying out for. Jango is now the only bastion of this approach. Is the only way to get into this music just to keep on dancing to it till you 'get it' or is there a teaching process that gives you the technique first necessary? Thoughts? __________________ "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none." - William Shakespeare. Last edited by Gus; 31st-August-2005 at 08:13 AM.

31st-August-2005, 10:53 AM	#3 (permalink)
Purple Sparkler Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Melée Island (tm) Posts: 1,015 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 223	Re: Dance or the Music I think it's dancing to the challenging music with a challenging partner (as in someone who really knows their stuff) that gets you up a notch- if you're dancing to a song with scope for musical interpretation (not all songs have this, IMHO)- breaks or an interesting/varied beat- with someone who knows how to take advantage of this, and you dance to that kind of music with that partner often enough, you begin to see where the breaks are, and get an idea of how musicality works. Then you begin to use what you're learning with other partners.

31st-August-2005, 11:49 AM	#4 (permalink)
Chef Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mayfield, East Sussex Posts: 919 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 1209	Re: Dance or the Music To what Purpple Sparkler just said. No popcorn needed. Well this is how it happened for me. I used to go on Camber weekenders and do my arm waggling stuff up in the modern room and was a very happy bunny while doing it. Being so enthusiastic at that time I danced almost every track and was having a whale of a time until I got burnt out at about 1-2am. On my way back to the chalet I would go through the swing and blues room and just look in awe at the way that the dance was entwined with the music with these dancers. It was such a step up from what I was doing at the time that I just felt silly and way out of my depth when I was asked to dance by one of the dancers. As I have gained skills I have been able to see where I can use them in conjunction with the music and grown to favour those peices of music more. That has made me want to go out and get to lessons and learn more. I think the dance skills and the more challenging music have gone hand in hand for me. One has fed the other. Being out of my comfort zone is often deeply frustrating but is now something that have come to look on as a good thing (as long as it is not all the time). My personal feeling is that I need to feel inspired by a peice of music to really like dancing to it and to give of my best. I will dance to music that doesn't inspire me if I am asked to dance but the dance does not feel the same to me inside without that feeling of really liking the music. This is why I now go to great lengths to seek out DJs that play the music of the style that I like and they also find new stuff that also maintains my interest. The good thing about this is that other dancers who also like the same stuff tend to be at the same venues. So when I am dancing I am often with someone on a similar wavelength and when not dancing I am talking to people that have similar tastes in music and dancing. Without being exposed to the music and dancers of the blues room at Camber I would probably not have aspired to dancing like that. I had Ceroc to have fun with and other styles and venues to keep the intellectual interest up. There is a need for both for me.

31st-August-2005, 01:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
Almost an Angel Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heaven of course, currently on secondment to purgatory Posts: 381 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 205	Re: Dance or the Music Hmmm Dance or the Music? Difficult question. I think as PS said it has to be a combination of both. On the dance side, having a challenging piece of music with a partner who is able to challenge your dancing and push you to the next level is the ideal, kinda like looking for the dreamstate where you have this perfect dance, it's not necessarily the dance or the music but the combination of both. You both gain from the experience and the challenge. Personally I find this a huge benefit, it inspires me to try things I wouldn't ordinarily do within my dancing, and encourages me to improve my dancing by trying out new or different styles and trying even in some small way to be like some of the dancers I admire. Also the rise in the availability of more structured workshops specifically geared towards not gaining moves but actual interpretation has increased peoples exposure to the different dance styles. On the music side, there are always those who are able to push the boundaries of the music played and there are always those dancers who will rise to the challenge of the music played, finding new and innovative ways of interpreting the music into the dance. This has been happenening for years, many of the dance forms have evolved from the change in the music style of that era. Take WCS the music has influenced the dance, OK the basic steps are the same but the music has pushed the boundaries of what can be achieved within the dance, and although is more obviously shown here is true for most dance styles. Personally I love the challenge of interpreting a piece of music, seeking out new styles that can be incorporated, even watching how other people interpret the music into the dance and trying it out myself (even if I don't look as glamourous as they do). For me music and dance are inextricably linked, they both contribute to the experience, the availability of more challenging music and more focused teaching adds to the experience, they combine together to achieve more than either would have done alone, and when combined with a challenging partner . My view is that taking a dancer to their own next level is a combination of both, they have to be able to both appreciate and to interpret the music. Be this through exposure to different types of music or exposure to more focused teaching to allow them room for growth within their dancing.

31st-August-2005, 01:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
spindr Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Basingstoke Posts: 1,558 Status: No Status Rep Power: 3 Rep.: 686	Re: Dance or the Music Top priority isn't the dance or the music -- it's "the room" -- you need a good safe atmosphere to be able to concentrate on musicality rather than floor craft. Then it's confidence -- being prepared to move outside of your "safety zone" and mess up (safely). Then it's the music -- you have to keep in time, etcetera. Also helps if you have enough confidence to be able to stretch and compress -- and not to have to step every single count. Then it's the dance -- that's just gives you more options to do to the music (if you aren't doing them to the music it's not dancing). Again enough confidence to trust your partner to follow/lead safely. SpinDr

31st-August-2005, 01:52 PM	#9 (permalink)
clevedonboy Commercial Operator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,342 Status: No Status Rep Power: 2 Rep.: 370	Re: Dance or the Music It's the music man .... Went to a forties do in Bristol couple of weeks ago and had confirmed to me something I "knew" - you can't MJ when it gets quick or slow. having had some blues lessons we were able to muddle through using a modified set of blues moves but I realised we were just messing around. So come the second week of September we'll be going to swing classes to learn how to do it properly.

31st-August-2005, 02:15 PM	#11 (permalink)
MartinHarper Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Worcester, UK Posts: 4,115 Status: No Status Rep Power: 5 Rep.: 1861	Re: Dance or the Music Excluding the 0.1% of the population who are naturals, good dancing requires competent teaching, but does not require "interesting" music. Real Dancers make the music they are dancing to sound interesting. Most elements of good dancing can be learnt whilst dancing to joyously simple music. I guess folks here are taking it as read that "the next level" is going to be musical interpretation. Fair enough. The music at standard MJ nights has potential for musical interpretation, for those who care to look, but doesn't force it. What will make someone look? It could be "challenging" music that forces musicality. It could be the inspiration of other dancers. It could be lessons in musical interpretation. Different folks take different routes.