Moving on....

[LMC]

Originally Posted by stewart38

If you want a proper poll lets have one

If you are calling moving extra women on a 'funeral wake method' im assuming there is a hidden bias

Yes it's biassed. Are you implying that everyone on here will be unable to see past my feeble attempts at humour and will have their opinion coloured by my words? Because I personally think that they are all more intelligent than that.

Alternatively, maybe I should apologise for forgetting that I am the only biassed and opinionated person on the forum and should therefore not openly display it.

As mentioned different things work for differnt venues and numbers and you cant ASSUME any method apart form the 'funeral wake method' has been talk/shown correctly.

No you can't assume that in the real world. I was talking about "in an ideal world" - where WHATEVER method is used is explained correctly AND (the bit you fail to quote) the method is the one in regular use at that venue so regular attendees will be used to it. In other words, treat all the methods equally - everyone is used to the queue system. I have agreed that the queue system is the simplest one and still do. However, it is also the slowest, which is why I think the other systems are worth considering.

Ps there was more men at Fulham yesterday and this blip in women numbers will even itself out no doubt by year end

Especially since you've advertised it, I'm definitely off to Fulham next week, thanks

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by LMC

Especially since you've advertised it, I'm definitely off to Fulham next week, thanks

Someone there said i was the best dance she had all night and that was at 10pm

How long do you have to wait before you can rep someone again ?? Its all new to me . Thanks for all the people who rep me in the past I can see it now

It was very odd walking around as havent had to do that for a while, 5 men on at one stage in the intermediates !!

[Russell Saxby]

Scatter method - been there done that, absolute chaos

It can be hard enough moving people on at the best of times.

As for getting people moving round quicker... you just have to get them into the habit at the start of the class.. start counting them in before they get to their next partner - they will learn quick enough

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Russell Saxby

As for getting people moving round quicker... you just have to get them into the habit at the start of the class.. start counting them in before they get to their next partner - they will learn quick enough

Except that there's always one person who can't count, or who decides not to move, or goes the wrong way, or suddenly develops Slow Walking Disorder.

Plus, it takes 10 times as long to move 10 people on as 1. So that's wasted walking time when people could be learning.

[Russell Saxby]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

or suddenly develops Slow Walking Disorder. .

or has a partner hanging onto them, trying to show them the move, that they obviously have not got if only they realised that in moving them on 'x' number, I am trying to fix them up with a partner who knows what they are doing.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Except that there's always one person who can't count, or who decides not to move, or goes the wrong way, or suddenly develops Slow Walking Disorder. .

Yep but this will happen whatever method you choose - scatter or line approach people will always find moving on difficult

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So that's wasted walking time when people could be learning.

Well I can only go by the looks I get from 50% of the class, esp beginners, when using the one lady on / scatter approach. Also, the speed in which I can carry on with teaching after a move around. If the moving on is chaos it has a knock on effect on my teaching and peoples learning.

Of course having lots of ladies over is not ideal but that is just the way it is.

Now if each lady introduced a few more men - we woud not have this problem

But if the scatter approach works for some teachers / venues


Russell

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by Russell Saxby

Scatter method - been there done that, absolute chaos

It can be hard enough moving people on at the best of times.

As for getting people moving round quicker... you just have to get them into the habit at the start of the class.. start counting them in before they get to their next partner - they will learn quick enough

If you were devising from scratch a system to rotate partners then surely the scatter system would be the obvious one to use. No-one would come up with a long line of people round the edge. If people can't cope with the concept of moving one place at a time, whether that is into a space or opposite a partner, how can they be expected to cope with moving around n places at a time when n varies, x potential partners or y co-movers drop out, people 'cut corners', rotation changes direction, or whetever? If scattering doesn't work it must be down to a failure of explanation, nothing else

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

If scattering doesn't work it must be down to a failure of explanation, nothing else

You've obviously never watched it happen in a class then. I have.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

If you were devising from scratch a system to rotate partners then surely the scatter system would be the obvious one to use. No-one would come up with a long line of people round the edge. If people can't cope with the concept of moving one place at a time, whether that is into a space or opposite a partner, how can they be expected to cope with moving around n places at a time when n varies, x potential partners or y co-movers drop out, people 'cut corners', rotation changes direction, or whetever? If scattering doesn't work it must be down to a failure of explanation, nothing else

People still drop out with any method

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

You've obviously never watched it happen in a class then. I have.

Well I have, but I can't understand why it doesn't work better, hence I put it down to excessive conditioning with the 'move 20 ladies on' method and a lack of proper explanation

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by stewart38

People still drop out with any method

Yes, but with the scatter method it doesn't affect things. With rotation, it does

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Well I have, but I can't understand why it doesn't work better, hence I put it down to excessive conditioning with the 'move 20 ladies on' method and a lack of proper explanation

It doesn't work because people don't listen to the explanation, selfishly don't bother to notice that they should be moving on into a space (and so don't move on at all - which means the 'space' ripples back towards the start of the class) and because the excess people are incapable of distributing themselves reasonably evenly around the room because they can't see where the existing 'spaces' are from floor level.

Believe me, I've spent weeks watching this kind of chaos from the stage (where it's obvious what's going wrong) while the teacher has to get the taxi-dancers to sort it out; meanwhile everyone waits.

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

It doesn't work because people don't listen to the explanation, selfishly don't bother to notice that they should be moving on into a space (and so don't move on at all - which means the 'space' ripples back towards the start of the class) and because the excess people are incapable of distributing themselves reasonably evenly around the room because they can't see where the existing 'spaces' are from floor level.

Believe me, I've spent weeks watching this kind of chaos from the stage (where it's obvious what's going wrong) while the teacher has to get the taxi-dancers to sort it out; meanwhile everyone waits.

I can understand that that could happen, and I've seen it for myself. But why? What's so difficult? Either there's something about it that the human brain cannot cope with or, more likely, it needs to be better explained. I think we need a culture change to make it the normal method in mj. Until then, chaos does appear to be the result....but why? Perhaps an application for queueing theory.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

I can understand that that could happen, and I've seen it for myself. But why? What's so difficult? Either there's something about it that the human brain cannot cope with or, more likely, it needs to be better explained. I think we need a culture change to make it the normal method in mj. Until then, chaos does appear to be the result....but why? Perhaps an application for queueing theory.

If you count wrong moving in a line then you have people in front or behind to correct you; you screw up, and somebody's left without a partner, which everyone knows is wrong. So six or seven people will scream at you to get it right.

If you move on wrong with the scatter method (or don't move on into a space when you should) then only one person is inconvenienced - the person behind you - and there's no peer pressure. And since everyone knows there are lone people with no partner but no one is sure where those people are supposed to be, there's no indication of who screwed up.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Yes, but with the scatter method it doesn't affect things. With rotation, it does

Of course it does !

someone explain

Anyway as I said i dont care what method is used but scatter isnt always the best ,where is god when you need him ?

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

If you count wrong moving in a line then you have people in front or behind to correct you; you screw up, and somebody's left without a partner, which everyone knows is wrong. So six or seven people will scream at you to get it right.

If you move on wrong with the scatter method (or don't move on into a space when you should) then only one person is inconvenienced - the person behind you - and there's no peer pressure. And since everyone knows there are lone people with no partner but no one is sure where those people are supposed to be, there's no indication of who screwed up.

I'm going to produce an academic paper entitled 'Queueing theory, group norms and peer pressure: an empirical study of modern jive class rotation'....

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

I'm going to produce an academic paper entitled 'Queueing theory, group norms and peer pressure: an empirical study of modern jive class rotation'....

I'd pick a different name. "Queuing Theory" is something quite different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queuing_theory

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

Well I have, but I can't understand why it doesn't work better, hence I put it down to excessive conditioning with the 'move 20 ladies on' method and a lack of proper explanation

The scatter method is probably always going to need more care and attention by taxi-dancers, venue managers and teachers, to ensure people are slotted in correctly. It's more work to make it work, in other words. And it's messier, and probably takes up more space.

People are used to a queue system, even a zigzagged one, but the "slotting in and out" system takes more time to understand. So it's also more work for the dancers. And as ESG says, there's more potential for individual screwups / cheats. Finally, if there are only 1, 2 or 3 people over, it's not really any more efficient.

I had the pleasure of watching from the stage last night, and it's certainly a serious extra effort to organise. Also, some women, even in the intermediate class ( ), somehow thought they were still using the queue system and had to be gently shown what to do.

So, with all these drawbacks, why do it? The answer is that in a not-insanely-overcrowded and five-or-more-women-over venue (i.e. lots of them), it is, at least potentially, much more efficient, takes much less time to move, allows more moves, and gives more teaching time.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear

I'm going to produce an academic paper entitled 'Queueing theory, group norms and peer pressure: an empirical study of modern jive class rotation'....

well you dont seem to understand the draw backs of the scatter method why not ?

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

I'd pick a different name. "Queuing Theory" is something quite different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queuing_theory

Well I think queueing theory, which has been applied to the queues for men's and women's lavatories, could be applied to the queues of n females standing at the side of the room waiting to move on....

[Yogi_Bear]

Originally Posted by DavidJames

So, with all these drawbacks, why do it? The answer is that in a not-insanely-overcrowded and five-or-more-women-over venue (i.e. lots of them), it is, at least potentially, much more efficient, takes much less time to move, allows more moves, and gives more teaching time.