Do we know what 'GOOD' looks like?

[Gus]

{ODA Mode On}

There have been a number of teachers hailed in terms similar to the Second Coming. There have also been others , who have proven their skills beyond reproach, who have been seen as being merely ordinary. The only explanation is that Ceroc Jo Public wouldn't know a good instructor if they battered them over the head with a wet halibut.

AND BEFORE you scream in an apoplectic fit and the outrage of this statement .. consider this. When you started, remember how impressed you were with someone who could actually remember the whole beginners lesson, how good someone looked if they could do a double pretzel etc. The plain truth is that the vast majority of punters know bu**er all about dance yet feel fully justified to sing the praises of Jo Bloggs on stage who probably only has 6 months or so more experience. At what stage does a unter actualy know enough to make a meaningful assessment of how good the instructor is?

Do we need ALL MJ instructors to be fully NVQ approved. Do we need a formal grading of instructors, both for standard and as to what specialties they can teach?
{ODA Mode OFF}

OK ... thats just the opening proposition. I've been a bit unsettled by a range of comments about teachers who I wither know don’t know backside from elbow or who have a superb grasp of dance and how to communicate it ... yet general comments have not met my perception of such. I've discussed my view with teachers who have a lot more experience than myself and here seemed to be a similar feeling (in some cases .. not all). I think that the trend towards using competition success (even in minor competitions) to promote instructors is a worrying trend in part. I'm particulalry concerned about the number of charlatans about ... instructors who either cannot teach anything of worth or who have 'borrowed' thier entire content from better instructors. Just curious ... anyone think this is an issue?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gus

At what stage does a unter actualy know enough to make a meaningful assessment of how good the instructor is?

Round about the same point in the evening when they decide whether to come back the next week and hand over another £7.

Anyone else?

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Gus

The only explanation is that Ceroc Jo Public wouldn't know a good instructor if they battered them over the head with a wet halibut.

Since I'm still pretty much in ^^^^ that category, I would be simplistic and stay that a GOOD teacher bothers teaching fundamentals like handhold, frame, tension, safety, courtesy - all too frequently these seem to be treated as optional or in an "oh, by the way...." approach.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally Posted by LMC

I would be simplistic and stay that a GOOD teacher bothers teaching fundamentals like handhold, frame, tension, safety, courtesy

Most Ceroc teachers do not teach all this, yet the vast majority of them I'd at least consider "Good". See, "Simplistic" gets you criticised

El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?

Commercially, yes

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head ...

Watch it, you, lest I decide to make disparaging remarks about your sausage too.

[Gill (Norwich)]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?

No not necessarily true, if you have a lack of choice as in some pockets of the country (but maybe that's why they only charge £5.50?)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gill (Norwich)

No not necessarily true, if you have a lack of choice as in some pockets of the country (but maybe that's why they only charge £5.50?)

Which is consistent with the fact that what is considered 'GOOD' varies according to location.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?

And if you've been conned into paying for a healer for 12 years ... is the fact that you still go back make it good enough?

A point of argument is that many dnacers dont know what GOOD is because they either dont know enough about what is being taught or , more likely, they have nothing to compare it to. I remember thinking how good the teacher was when i was in Stoke ... until I saw 'Boy Robin' teaching in Nottingham etc. etc. Another key point, I've taught a fair few dancers who have come through the standard process ... but who have no concept of balance, timing, accents, lead and follow etc ... yet they all sing the praises of their teachers

[El Salsero Gringo]

Originally Posted by Gus

And if you've been conned into paying for a healer for 12 years ... is the fact that you still go back make it good enough?

Depends on whether you think you've been conned or not. Who's to say what benefits people get from engaging the services of someone to lavish attention on them?

A point of argument is that many dnacers dont know what GOOD is because they either dont know enough about what is being taught or , more likely, they have nothing to compare it to.

You could make the same argument about competition judges not having any objective standards to judge to... oh - hang on a minute...

[LMC]

Watch your back Gus - someone's gunning for Forum ODA Award

[Gus]

Originally Posted by LMC

Watch your back Gus - someone's gunning for Forum ODA Award

Nahhhh ... first of all he'd have to make sense ( ) THEN have to coherently argue opposing sides of the argument ......

[bigdjiver]

To look at the question from another angle - I cannot think of a bad Ceroc teacher. They usually all the ones I know usually teach the four moves so that they can be acquired. Sometimes even the best teachers have a bad day, or a particular weakness. There are also a few teachers that I do not enjoy. It is not possible to meet the needs of everybody in the usual disparate class. If a beginner thinks that the teacher is good, then the teacher is good, at least for them, at that level.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

To look at the question from another angle - I cannot think of a bad Ceroc teacher.

A Ceroc teacher for the main teaches a pre-programmed set of moves. It now depends what your defintion of 'bad' is. From your statement is sounds like you are comparing the teacher to the benchmark of how well they meet this role. In that context fair enough. HOWEVER, if you then compare them to a proper dance teacher and start looking at how well they have taught their students lead and follow, balance, how to look good, how to exapnd their range of movement ... then there may well be a different answer.

[drathzel]

And are we talking about Looking good on the dance floor or being good on stage.... ie being a good teacher. And can you be one without being the other!

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Gus

The only explanation is that Ceroc Jo Public wouldn't know a good instructor if they battered them over the head with a wet halibut.

I'd think they'd probably know that wasn't a sign of a good instructor.

Other possible explanations:
- different people get different things from different classes at different times
- new teachers always seem more interesting
- some teachers are good for some aspects of dance teaching, and some are good for others

As for judgement of some teachers' ability, boy, I remember the sh*tstorm I landed in last time I even suggested that some teachers might be, err, not superb.

So to you for stirring again

Originally Posted by Gus

The plain truth is that the vast majority of punters know bu**er all about dance yet feel fully justified to sing the praises of Jo Bloggs on stage who probably only has 6 months or so more experience.

I'm going to go all democratic here, and say that most people will be able to judge whether a class was good for them; and that's the only yardstick that matters to them.

Originally Posted by Gus

I think that the trend towards using competition success (even in minor competitions) to promote instructors is a worrying trend in part.

Surely you're not suggesting that anyone could ever enter a competition except for the love of the dance?

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

To look at the question from another angle - I cannot think of a bad Ceroc teacher.

I can. The excellent (for what it does) CTA course aside, some do slip through the net IMO.

[Minnie M]

IMHO It is not what they do (teach) it is the way that they do it. Hence CTA instructors tend to have the edge over the private ones.

Also, tried and tested moves should only be used for beginners and intermediates. I get so cross when being tought a MJ move which is NOT leadable

PLUS, the best teachers are the most experienced (in teaching that is) as they have learnt from most of their (and the students) mistakes.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Gus

A Ceroc teacher for the main teaches a pre-programmed set of moves. It now depends what your defintion of 'bad' is. From your statement is sounds like you are comparing the teacher to the benchmark of how well they meet this role. In that context fair enough. HOWEVER, if you then compare them to a proper dance teacher and start looking at how well they have taught their students lead and follow, balance, how to look good, how to exapnd their range of movement ... then there may well be a different answer.

On the other hand, how many people does the typical "proper" dance teacher get to a level where they enjoy dancing. And what proportion of their students get discouraged and drop out before then?

The greatest positive of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

The greatest negative of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

[Little Monkey]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

The greatest positive of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

The greatest negative of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

Well said.

LM