the "Ceroc Model" and 'long term' dancers

[Gadget]

It has often been said that the Ceroc business model is aimed at getting in new dancers - bums on seats - that sort of thing.

It has also been said that there is little motivation for dancers to keep coming back, week after week, year after year once they "get it" and can dance to what they consider an "acceptable" level.

The only thing I have seen to rectify this is the varied and interesting workshops that get put on.

The benifits of keeping the good dancers are that they will improve the over-all dancing at a venue; by inspiration, draw, example, and dancing with people. In business terms, is a good 'long term' dancer at a venue worth the same as a taxi dancer? Don't they provide the 'taxi' for people who are not beginners any more? Should there be a "Loyalty Scheme" to give something back to 'long term' dancers?

Thoughts?

[Piglet]

I might be biased but I do think that it is a big help for beginners in the Beginners' Class if there are a mix of beginners taking part who are on their
1st or 20+ lesson and intermediates who take part too.

Certainly, when I was a beginner I appreciated finding mixed abilities in the class, because if one lead was struggling, then a more experienced lead could help out if I hadn't quite got it either. (Similarly for me learning to lead in intermediate - think I've got the hang of Beginner's leads now).

The same could be said of the Intermediate class really. There are a handful of guys that I know will get the move and lead it exquisitely and many more that can struggle with a certain part of the move and can look for help from the follower to get it right (in which case you need an experienced follower as well as an experienced lead - although with being a follower you've got to know when to let them get on and try to get it for themselves and when to give that extra bit of support).

I like the idea of the "loyalty scheme" but I'm not sure if it would entice any other "more experienced than me" (cos I'm still learning too) dancers back.

But hey - I wouldn't say no

[Andy McGregor]

There is an assumption that people stop dancing because of boredom. If people got bored with thier repetitious hobby people would give up most of their pastimes. There is another assumption that people give up because they can't find enough good partners - this could be true, but I doubt it. If people didn't stop dancing there's be loads of good dancers.

A loyalty scheme is likely to be based in price. I don't think people stop attending because of the price. In my experience people stop attending because their life changes and those changes make it more difficult to fit in dancing. I've occasionally bumped into people who've stopped dancing after a year or two. They usually say it's due to outside factors and they'd love to come back to dancing once they've found a new job, finished moving in, stopped looking after their mum, their kids can be left, they've recovered from their operation, etc, etc. And sometimes they do come back. Those returners often say they'd forgotten how much fun it is

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

There is an assumption that people stop dancing because of boredom. If people got bored with thier repetitious hobby people would give up most of their pastimes. There is another assumption that people give up because they can't find enough good partners - this could be true, but I doubt it. If people didn't stop dancing there's be loads of good dancers.

On the other hand...

I met an ex-Ceroc dancer at a party on Thursday night. She'd been dancing for about a year and a half, and stopped about two years ago. She said she loved the dancing, but got bored with the classes. But then she hasn't been attending the monthly parties either...

We had a few good dances, which she clearly enjoyed, but I don't think I persuaded her to come back. We'll see...

Perhaps there were other circumstances relating to her stopping coming along that she didn't want to go into. :shrug:

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

A loyalty scheme is likely to be based in price. I don't think people stop attending because of the price.

There's lots of options and variables...

E.g., if I were, say, a local Ceroc franchise holder, and was concerned that the "long term" dancers were coming only to my freestyles, and not to classes, I'd maybe set up a scheme which would give free entry to the freestyle to anybody who had attended a certain number of classes in the past month or so. Perhaps make it conditional that they attended the intermediate class or even the beginner's class, if that was a worry to me.

OK, that's still playing with the price, but the trick is to make it look like a reward, rather than a discount.

If I were offered maybe 10% off all Franck's Stirling "focus on" workshops because of regular attendance at his normal classes, I'd say thanks, but it probably wouldn't make me actually attend any more than I do now. If though I were given free entry to the workshop because I'd been to two of his Glasgow classes that week from the start, that might motivate not only to pay to go to more classes, but also to claim my "reward" at the end of the week – and I'd probably also end up paying to stay for the freestyle after the workshop, again actually spending more money than I would have, just because I'd been rewarded!


Another way to encourage loyalty from "long term" dancers would be to find ways to include them more in the creation of the local Ceroc experience.

Perhaps, as the hypothetical franchisee again, I'd give them a real-life (not internet) forum where they could discuss with me and each other what would make things better for them.

Also, by bringing them into a more co-ordinated "team", to help at events, busks and parties and the like, they would then feel greater ownership of the whole thing, and so are less likely to stray elsewhere.


But that's just the first few random thoughts off the top of my head...

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

I agree that Ceroc is definately geared towards getting in beginners, which is great. But what about when you are a competent intermediate going on advanced dancer? Maybe these advanced dancers would want a new challenge so move onto a more difficult/different style of dancing? Just a thought...

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by Jazz_Shoes (Ash)

I agree that Ceroc is definately geared towards getting in beginners, which is great. But what about when you are a competent intermediate going on advanced dancer? Maybe these advanced dancers would want a new challenge so move onto a more difficult/different style of dancing? Just a thought...

Ceroc is mass market. Advanced dancing is specialised and probably not profitable.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Ceroc is mass market. Advanced dancing is specialised and probably not profitable.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that. Certainly, it's a smaller market than Ceroc Nationwide. But I don't see why it has to be less profitable - it may be more difficult to contact your prospect, but I imagine you can also charge more for your services, in that these people might be more willing to pay more for a better product.

And of course, the more people Ceroc gets to intermediate level, the larger the potential market becomes for more advanced classes. London alone has several advanced classes already each week, so clearly someone thinks it's worth doing.

As for loyalty schemes, Ceroc Chilterns has been running one of these for over a year now, based on attendance (doesn't differentiate between freestyle / class attendance). It's a "stamp your card" type of thing, I think you need 8 stamps to get a free entry or something.

But obviously, thyis isn't personalised based on length of attendance. In fact, I can't think of any loyalty scheme that works this way - that would be a nightmare to set up and administer, I imagine.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

Ceroc is mass market. Advanced dancing is specialised and probably not profitable.

"Advanced" dancers in a venue are surely an advantage to that venue - for everyone attending. By acknowleding this, are you not catering to the masses?

It's not about becoming specialist and offering things soley for "advanced dancers"; it's about encouraging dancers to stay and add their experiance, knowledge, dancing, etc to a night.

Originally Posted by DavidJames

As for loyalty schemes, Ceroc Chilterns has been running one of these for over a year now, based on attendance (doesn't differentiate between freestyle / class attendance). It's a "stamp your card" type of thing, I think you need 8 stamps to get a free entry or something.

But obviously, thyis isn't personalised based on length of attendance. In fact, I can't think of any loyalty scheme that works this way - that would be a nightmare to set up and administer, I imagine.

That's the sort of thing I was thinking on - kind of like cigarette cards or texico/shell vouchers where you could redeem X for Y - the more you had, the bigger the 'gift' you could "cash them in" for. A little bit of administration, but not that much.

If you wanted to be slick about it, you could probably make something like this automated so that when "customers" swipe in, they accumulate points . A pop-up could tell the Venue manager points accumulated and what they could be redeemed for.

Originally Posted by ducasi

Another way to encourage loyalty from "long term" dancers would be to find ways to include them more in the creation of the local Ceroc experience.

Perhaps, as the hypothetical franchisee again, I'd give them a real-life (not internet) forum where they could discuss with me and each other what would make things better for them.

I've always found Franck to be approachable And wouldn't it be better to propose stuff on an open forum like here where sharper minds than mine have a chance to poke holes in them and discuss whether ideas have merit or not. OK, on a local level, there may be some conditions and criteria that are irrelevant to "global" discussion, but they can be taken into account when analysing the discussion.

Also, by bringing them into a more co-ordinated "team", to help at events, busks and parties and the like, they would then feel greater ownership of the whole thing, and so are less likely to stray elsewhere.

Isn't that what the army of taxis are for? After all, they are rewarded for their participation: it should {IMHO} be considered part of their duties to help.

Originally Posted by Andy McGregor

There is an assumption that people stop dancing because... A loyalty scheme is likely to be based in price. I don't think people stop attending because of the price.

I don't know why people stop - I assume that their life changes: they discover something that has more of a pull or find that the pull they thought was there is not any more.

It's not the "Pull" you are trying to prevent; it's any "Push" created by either lack of stimulation or lack of acknowledgement.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Gadget

"Advanced" dancers in a venue are surely an advantage to that venue - for everyone attending. By acknowleding this, are you not catering to the masses?

A certain percentage of, errr, experienced dancers (I hate the "A" word!) is certainly good for a venue, because it demonstrates that "yes, you too can look this good" to beginners. But I think that any greater than that "certain percentage" can cause problems due to intimidation for beginners - i.e. the "Oh God, I'll never get that good" factor.

So I'm not sure that a standard venue will gain a huge amount by offering "long-standing customers" rewards - and again I think the admin would be a beyatch (How many years attendance? At which venues / franchises? How many times per year? How many classes? How good are they?).

Originally Posted by Gadget

It's not about becoming specialist and offering things soley for "advanced dancers"; it's about encouraging dancers to stay and add their experiance, knowledge, dancing, etc to a night.

I agree, but I don't think this is something to solve with a loyalty scheme. I assume the loyalty scheme at Ceroc Chilterns is there basically to encourage customers to return to that franchise, rather than go to venues at other franchises. It doesn't seem to help encourage experienced dancers as such.

I don't believe experienced dancers want better value-for-money; I believe they're just much more picky about class levels, music, venue factors and so on. Price (and for that matter location) seem to be very much secondary considerations.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I've always found Franck to be approachable

Absolutely. That's why I'm talking about a hypothetical franchise and franchisee.

Originally Posted by Gadget

And wouldn't it be better to propose stuff on an open forum like here where sharper minds than mine have a chance to poke holes in them and discuss whether ideas have merit or not. OK, on a local level, there may be some conditions and criteria that are irrelevant to "global" discussion, but they can be taken into account when analysing the discussion.

In my hypothetical franchise, not all the "long-term" dancers are on my internet forum, but I have all their phone numbers and addresses and I see them fairly often so maybe it'd be easier to organise a few in-person discussions. Of course discussion on my hypothetical internet forum would be welcome, but not my hypothetical competitor's!



With regard to making "long-term" dancers part of the "team"...

Originally Posted by Gadget

Isn't that what the army of taxis are for? After all, they are rewarded for their participation: it should {IMHO} be considered part of their duties to help.

There's lots of experienced, good, long-term dancers who don't want to be taxi dancers. Maybe they've done it and are a bit burnt out, maybe they don't have the patience to help beginners learn. It would be good if a way was found to include them too.

(Disclaimer: I am neither "experienced", nor a "long-term dancer". Some people with disregard to my swelling ego have told me I am "good", considering how long I've been dancing. I have as yet no need for incentives, rewards or any other loyalty programme.)

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Jazz_Shoes (Ash)

I agree that Ceroc is definately geared towards getting in beginners, which is great. But what about when you are a competent intermediate going on advanced dancer? Maybe these advanced dancers would want a new challenge so move onto a more difficult/different style of dancing? Just a thought...

The lesson at the Ceroc St. Neots freestyle was cha-cha. It was not only something different for the more advanced, but was attended by at least three first timers as well, who could join in on more or less equal terms with all of the others that had not done the cha-cha before.

[TheTramp]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

The lesson at the Ceroc St. Neots freestyle was cha-cha. It was not only something different for the more advanced, but was attended by at least three first timers as well, who could join in on more or less equal terms with all of the others that had not done the cha-cha before.

You were there?? Shame we didn't get a chance to say hello....

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by TheTramp

You were there?? Shame we didn't get a chance to say hello....

I would have liked that.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

The lesson at the Ceroc St. Neots freestyle was cha-cha. It was not only something different for the more advanced, but was attended by at least three first timers as well, who could join in on more or less equal terms with all of the others that had not done the cha-cha before.

I was there. I was the pretty one

[tsh]

The venues I go to don't need any more dancers - they are roughly at capacity for the venue, which in itself is a disincentive to turn up! It must be easier to cater for beginners who drift away after 6 months than to teach at a more advanced level - which is why the ceroc model is the way it is!

I would also guess that maybe 20% of the leads in the intermediate classes actually lead the routine - which says something is badly wrong!

My experience of people who have drifted away from ceroc after a reasonable length of time is that they found that it was no longer interesting - not other factors.

Sean

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by ducasi

In my hypothetical franchise, not all the "long-term" dancers are on my internet forum, but I have all their phone numbers and addresses and I see them fairly often so maybe it'd be easier to organise a few in-person discussions.

Good point. Also it provides an option to physically demonstrate & show rather than just use words.

With regard to making "long-term" dancers part of the "team"...

There's lots of experienced, good, long-term dancers who don't want to be taxi dancers. Maybe they've done it and are a bit burnt out, maybe they don't have the patience to help beginners learn. It would be good if a way was found to include them too.

I'm not a taxi or teacher - never have been. I have helped out on occasion when I can; it serves me because I get to dance more, learn more and am actualy doing something constructive rather than sitting on my butt {or/and typing garbage on the forum }. But I wouldn't say I'm a "typical" dancer - where/what is the motivation behind making them part of the "team", especially when the other members of the "team" (ie taxis) get perks for being in it?