Long-term Intermediates

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It's long-term intermediates...

Idea for a thread - can people give their definition for the kind of dancer who would fit Chris' term?

[Icey]

Can I be a long term intermediate without the obnoxious behaviour?
It's unlikely I'll get to the 'advanced' levels in this decade so that would indicate to me that I would be somewhere in the intermediate area (hopefully). But if anyone ever catches me behaving in the manner that ChrisA described please kick me on the shins and tell me to pull my socks up!

[Minnie M]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

Idea for a thread - can people give their definition for the kind of dancer who would fit Chris' term?

I am a long term Intermediate Lindy Dancer - I first started to learn about 8 years ago, but as I spend 90% of my time dancing MJ I am not improving, even though I do mix with the Lindy crowd at least once a month.

Could almost say the same about my WCS - I am quite good at the basic moves (have been doing them for about 5 years now) but have not improved much beyond them so that makes me a 'Long Term WCS Beginner/Improver "

[TiggsTours]

Originally Posted by Minnie M

I am a long term Intermediate Lindy Dancer - I first started to learn about 8 years ago, but as I spend 90% of my time dancing MJ I am not improving, even though I do mix with the Lindy crowd at least once a month.

Originally Posted by Minnie M

Could almost say the same about my WCS - I am quite good at the basic moves (have been doing them for about 5 years now) but have not improved much beyond them so that makes me a 'Long Term WCS Beginner/Improver "

Minnie M, you could be describing me!

I started Lindy about 7 years ago, and WCS about 6, but as I could count the number of WCS classes I've done without taking my socks off, and haven't done too many more Lindy classes, I just can't progress past the Intermediate stage (I'd say more beginner in WCS!).

My New Year's Resolution is actually to spend more time concentrating on Lindy & WCS instead of MJ, as these are really the dance styles I love, I'll just miss the openness of the MJ world, I'll be surrounding myself with dance snobs!

[Gadget]

Not read that thread fully yet, but my interpritation is those dancers that dance well enough to be happy and content on the dance floor. They have no immediate desire to work hard at improving; they love to dance how they dance.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Not read that thread fully yet, but my interpritation is those dancers that dance well enough to be happy and content on the dance floor. They have no immediate desire to work hard at improving; they love to dance how they dance.

I agree with this, more or less.

I was going to phrase it:

"Those who aren't getting better, and don't know or care."

It's not quite the same, I know - I'm inclining this definition in the same slightly pejorative sense in which I used the term earlier.

But I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with being a long-term intermediate in Gadget's sense, providing they don't hurt anyone.

It's when they expect all the people whose dancing they admire to suddenly want to dance with them, and go all rejected and needy when they discover that those people have lives of their own, and don't want to live those lives entirely for the benefit of others around them, that you get the conflict that so often gets expressed here.

I think you have a happier life as someone that fits Gadget's description, in fact there's a lot to be said for it. It sounds like bliss to me - to enjoy practically all the music, enjoy dancing with practically everyone, at practically all venues.

Why would anyone want to be any different?

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

It's when they expect all the people whose dancing they admire to suddenly want to dance with them, and go all rejected and needy when they discover that those people have lives of their own, and don't want to live those lives entirely for the benefit of others around them, that you get the conflict that so often gets expressed here.

I must have a different view of what's expressed here; I've not seen this conflict from "long-term intermediates" - most of the moaning comes from the "good" dancers who work to improve themselves but don't want to dance with another dancer who is not interested in getting any better.

Perhaps I'm nieve, but I don't think that anyone Expects(*1) all the people who's dancing they admire to suddenly(*2) want(*3) to dance with them. unless you take the following provisos...

*1 - "Expects" - only in that if they ask them for a dance, they expect to get one. I don't think anyone "expects" to be asked by better dancers than themselves, but that's more human nature thing
*2 - "Suddenly" - These dancers will improve with time and patience as they either get used to your style, or you learn how to accomodate theirs.
*3 - "Want" - strange word... can mean a level of posessive desire that will not be barred. Or the fact that there's music playing, you are in a dance venue and that's what you like to do.
I "want" to dance to every track. If the person infront of me saught me out and wants to dance with me, then I want do dance with them.

[under par]

Originally Posted by Gadget

..... dancers that dance well enough to be happy and content on the dance floor. They have no immediate desire to work hard at improving; they love to dance how they dance.

Originally Posted by chrisA

"Those who aren't getting better, and don't know or care."

Of the two quotes I think Gadget provides a more positive slant compared to what Chris has written. Probably both mean the same but one sounds slightly less negative.

Both are just about right as far as the definition of long term intermediate

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by under par

Of the two quotes I think Gadget provides a more positive slant compared to what Chris has written. Probably both mean the same but one sounds slightly less negative.

The difference in tone was completely intentional. As I said, I gave that definition deliberately to fit the context in which I used it in http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...0&postcount=45, when I said:

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Real beginners, and people that genuinely want to improve, are usually very prepared to work at it, put the effort in, and respond positively to feedback.

It's long-term intermediates, and like it or not, ones that often really aren't very good, that are the ones that go all huffy about it all.

The majority probably fit Gadget's definition better than mine.

[stewart38]

Much easier for me to say Im a long term Intermediate dancer (after 11yrs of ceroc/jive) then saying im advanced

Interesting thread

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I must have a different view of what's expressed here; I've not seen this conflict from "long-term intermediates" - most of the moaning comes from the "good" dancers who work to improve themselves but don't want to dance with another dancer who is not interested in getting any better.

You're being incredibly selective in what you read then - because I'd say there at least as many posts from people complaining that "the good dancers don't ask me to dance", or "the good dancers only want to dance with each other" as there are complaining about the 'long term intermediates' (LTI). And that's not taking into account that most posts complaining about LTI are in response to an accusation of hotshotism.

Perhaps I'm nieve, but I don't think that anyone Expects(*1) all the people who's dancing they admire to suddenly(*2) want(*3) to dance with them. unless you take the following provisos...

*1 - "Expects" - only in that if they ask them for a dance, they expect to get one. I don't think anyone "expects" to be asked by better dancers than themselves, but that's more human nature thing

Well, there are certainly enough posts from people complaining that the better dancers don't ask them - I'm not sure they'd complain if they didn't expect it!

*2 - "Suddenly" - These dancers will improve with time and patience as they either get used to your style, or you learn how to accomodate theirs.

Although I'd argue how much they will improve, I think this point is a bit of a red herring - more a figure of speech than anything else - it doesn't really change ChrisA's statement if you get rid of it.

*3 - "Want" - strange word... can mean a level of posessive desire that will not be barred. Or the fact that there's music playing, you are in a dance venue and that's what you like to do.

Let's not argue semantics here. When it comes down to it, a lot of the complaints about hotshots boil down to the "hotshot" not showing enthusiasm for the dance or for the asker. In other words, they don't indicate that they "want" to dance with that person.

As far as point 3 goes, I actually think the "long term intermediate" is right to expect some amount of diplomatic nicety. But it only goes so far - if every time I dance with someone it's a completely miserable experience, after a while my eyes are not going to light up as they approach. (For what it's worth, my personal feeling is if a dance sucks for me, it probably sucks for my partner. If that's a perpetual situation rather than a one-off, we're both better off finding someone else to dance with. There are a lot of people out there to dance with! )

[doc martin]

Originally Posted by Icey

Can I be a long term intermediate without the obnoxious behaviour?

Originally Posted by ChrisA

But I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with being a long-term intermediate in Gadget's sense, providing they don't hurt anyone.

For me, this is the heart of it. It doesn't matter if someone has been dancing for a long time and not improving for most of that time, whether they know or care about the lack of improvement, or even how much enjoyment they get out of dancing the way they do.

What matters is how it affects the person they are dancing with. The way long-term intermediate is being used on these threads seems to me to imply that the person's bad habits lessen their partner's enjoyment of the dance. And that could range from physically hurting them to damaging their delicate musical sensitivities. And add to that the perceived bad habits are long term too.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

Idea for a thread - can people give their definition for the kind of dancer who would fit Chris' term?

People who dance at an intermediate level, and have done so long-term.

[Clive Long]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Much easier for me to say Im a long term Intermediate dancer (after 11yrs of ceroc/jive) then saying im advanced

Interesting thread

I too am a long term (weak-)intermediate.

I remain so because I don't devote enough time to develop.

The problem and frustration is only mine, not anyone else's.


Clive

[Icey]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

People who dance at an intermediate level, and have done so long-term.

This is the meaning I placed on the term because I don't want to be one of these:

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Those who aren't getting better, and don't know or care.

I want to be getting better, even if my path getting there is a long one.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

You're being incredibly selective in what you read then - because I'd say there at least as many posts from people complaining that "the good dancers don't ask me to dance", or "the good dancers only want to dance with each other" as there are complaining about the 'long term intermediates' (LTI). And that's not taking into account that most posts complaining about LTI are in response to an accusation of hotshotism.

I must also suffer from Gadget's selective blindness, as I don't recall many posts like that at all.

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by ducasi

I must also suffer from Gadget's selective blindness, as I don't recall many posts like that at all.

Looking over the last few weeks' posts, I think you're right (well, there were quite a few posts like I described in the FunkyLush thread, but it wasn't the LTI's who started it!). Apologies to Gadget.

To slightly change topic - I really can't be bothered to search back through the archives, but my perception is that suddenly a lot more people are coming out and saying "actually, I am fed up of dancing with the intermediates who never seem to get any better". Anyone else think this, or is it just me again?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally Posted by David Franklin

To slightly change topic - I really can't be bothered to search back through the archives, but my perception is that suddenly a lot more people are coming out and saying "actually, I am fed up of dancing with the intermediates who never seem to get any better". Anyone else think this, or is it just me again?

No, but it might be just you and me

IMHO the long term intermdiate is caused by the lesson structure in MJ. The lessons are the same standard, week after week. So how can people be expected to improve and rise above that standard? This is especially so with Ceroc as the objective seems to be to have the teaching standardised, homologated and regulated. At least independents will offer something different to visiting Cerocers, even if the standard is the same