Leading without being lead.

[Sparkles]

Having been fortunate enough to be lead by some fantasic male dancers I have been reflecting on those dances and have recently made an interesting discovery:
The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

This may not be news to some of you, but it was a revelation to me.
What I mean by it is that the positioning of their body, the way they're looking (ie the direction their eyes move) and other subtleties in their body language indicate to me the movement (or lack of movement) they require me to make before I feel a connection with their hand actually tell me.

So, is this the 'ultimate' in leading (assuming that you don't have e.s.p.)?
Is it something something that guys can or should learn?
Should followers be looking for these little 'signals' or should they just wait for the connection and lead?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

[under par]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

Having been fortunate enough to be lead by some fantasic male dancers I have been reflecting on those dances and have recently made an interesting discovery:
The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

Before I can answer the question do i come into this category?

A lead should be something physical related to the track being played!

Am I missing somethng from your definition and if so what am I doing wrong???

[TiggsTours]

The best is when, as a follower, you learn to do that back to them! From the way you position your body and the eye contact you make, you can say to them "If you lead me into a position that allows it next, I can do something really great", when they lead you there and you get to do your thang, its the best!

Not many guys can pick up on that subtle reverse lead though, and you need to accept that, and follow what they do, rather than what you want to do.

[gembar]

I'm far too unobservant a wretch to notice such subtleties. For me, the ultimate lead is one I can follow perfectly with my eyes closed! But maybe a lot of it's implicit. e.g. Part of being a good lead is moving out of your partner's way if necessary. Of course, if a guy clears a path for you it's a pretty big visual indication that he wants you to step that way. But it may be misleading, so you can't assume anything until he physically leads you, IMHO.

The really good leaders are probably aware of what, say, their positioning might imply or not imply (in some subconscious, Derren-Brown-like way) about the move coming up. Perhaps stuff like that could be taught. I definitely don't think follows should be taught to look out for such signals though, otherwise it starts to smack of Ceroc signals, which rely on you having been to the same class as the person you're dancing with.

[Gary]

Eyes, body position, posture, hands, elbows, hips, knees, whatever: so long as it gets the idea across, it's all good, and all (by my definition, anyway) leading.

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

I think that you may be mstaking what is happening for visual clues, when it's still physical: {this is stolen from an AT workshop, but I use it in MJ with sucess...}

The lead should have a preperation to it and be given out of time with the lead's movements so that the follower has a chance to actually follow: The order should be lead, lady moves, men follow lady's movement. But it all happens in a moment of time so that everyone moves in time with the music.

The 'preperation' is not 'stopping' the lead or loosing contact; it's just a moment of neutrality a fraction before, or a tensing of muscles to give a 'sense' of change before the physical movement.

I've recently beeen working on timing my lead and trying to incorporate some of this - it's really hard, but when it works, it's like liquid Most followers won't even notice that it's there - the lead just gets clearer to them and you both seem to move in unisen. As if by magic

[Dave Hancock]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

Am not sure if you were lucky enough to see Robert Cordoba when he was across but he did something similar in which the guys had to lead and the ladies follow but without any physical contact, it was a most interesting exercise and all the ladies I danced with immediately afterwards were a lot lighter to lead.

I would totally agree with you that a lot of the really good leads do actually lead before the physical, however for this to really work it's best when dancing with a really good follower.

[Franck]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

This may not be news to some of you, but it was a revelation to me.
What I mean by it is that the positioning of their body, the way they're looking (ie the direction their eyes move) and other subtleties in their body language indicate to me the movement (or lack of movement) they require me to make before I feel a connection with their hand actually tell me.

I have recently (in the last year or two) become really interested in the theory and concepts of leading and what you describe is very familiar. I would however extend it beyond eyes and body positioning.

For me, pre-lead is more about preparing (or at least being aware of) my partner so that key elements are all optimal:

- her connection (and the level of compression / leverage required).
- her balance (i.e. is she still recovering from a spin for example and ready to commit her momentum in the direction I'm about to lead)
- her weight-distribution (e.g. is she on the correct foot for stepping with me)
- There are other (more subtle) elements, like where she's looking, what she is doing with her hands, whether she has increased the connection herself to hi-jack the dance momentarily for a style fioriture, etc...

Once I'm aware of all the above for my partner, I need to apply the same to myself, including my own position (i.e. will I be in the way when I lead her).

Finally (after paying attention to floorcraft), I can apply a subtle lead and the move happens!

All that prep will happen before any (connection) lead is required and can be achieved with no physical contact.

At the 'Fingertip leading' workshop at the BFG, we spent some time subtly transferring weight from one foot to the other, to indicate (visually but subtly) that we were about to step forward (or back) on (for example) the right foot.

If this is done right, those principles can be applied to most followers and give the impression that somehow all moves work by magic...

[Clive Long]

I have a few ideas. I have no idea if they are right or contain any fragment of a good idea.

1. The man / leader must have intention (shamelessly pinched from AT, of course). i.e he must have some idea of what he is trying to achieve. This marks the stage where one has moved on from struggling to remember the details of a move. [OT1]

2. The leader must have a set of consistent body moves and postures e.g. I want to spin the follower so this requires our weight on our feet to start and move in certain way, my head to be facing in a way that is consistent with the intended movement (e.g. not looking at my feet), my torso and arms to be moving in a certain way, a strong enough connection through my arms and torso to transmit my intention, etc.

3. The leader must have confidence to assume and hold the lead. This maybe even more important than any technical issues about body positioning.

4. The woman / follower must accept or at least respond in a "compatible" way to the lead, not fight the lead (this happens, this happens)

I know I keep on linking to Mr. Lloyd but I make no apology. I think he talks much sense about lead / follow. You may disagree with his reasoning and arguments.

Clive

[OT1] Don't flame (Ok if you must) but I don't agree moves don't matter - try doing a foxtrot when the leader thinks it is OK to put his right foot behind his head. Absurd, I know, but I hope you get my point

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by TiggsTours

The best is when, as a follower, you learn to do that back to them! From the way you position your body and the eye contact you make, you can say to them "If you lead me into a position that allows it next, I can do something really great", when they lead you there and you get to do your thang, its the best!

Yeah, that is pretty good from a leading perspective too. Some followers are much better at doing this reverse cueing, too.

[Sparkles]

I started this thread before Christmas and I think it got a bit lost over the festive season. With all the talk of lead and follow coming up again I thought I'd see if anyone else had something to add on this topic...?

[El Salsero Gringo]

I know it's not quite what you had in mind, but I've now seen Mike Ellard leading by the lady's chin. And then there's Andreas's famous nose-lead. And which forumite is it that leads forehead-to-forehead? I'm getting muddled.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

I started this thread before Christmas and I think it got a bit lost over the festive season. With all the talk of lead and follow coming up again I thought I'd see if anyone else had something to add on this topic...?

I think I understand what you mean... If I hold a door open for you to go through before me, then with my eyes, body posture and manner I am leading you through the door.

I try to do this as much as possible when dancing, though I don't know how good I am at it. I see it in some of the best dancers around here when I watch them though...

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Sparkles

With all the talk of lead and follow coming up again I thought I'd see if anyone else had something to add on this topic...?

Nope. In fact, I'm going to go and hide if I see you again.

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

And which forumite is it that leads forehead-to-forehead? I'm getting muddled.

Couldn't imagine who'd do anything that strange...

[Msfab]

Originally Posted by ducasi

I think I understand what you mean... If I hold a door open for you to go through before me, then with my eyes, body posture and manner I am leading you through the door.

What he is not opening the door for you but for an other?
This sort of dancing is likely end up in a big mess, if both arent on the same wave!

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Msfab

What he is not opening the door for you but for an other?
This sort of dancing is likely end up in a big mess, if both arent on the same wave!

I'm usually only dancing with one person at a time... But my follower should be waiting for a physical lead also, leading them along the path I've prepared for them.

[Msfab]

Originally Posted by ducasi

I'm usually only dancing with one person at a time... But my follower should be waiting for a physical lead also, leading them along the path I've prepared for them.

And what if the follower doesnt wish to take that particular path?
Ive actually started doing that with one of sheepmans moves/leads, I get halfway (usually behind him) and then decide to go back which he can feel in my resistance. But id say that there may not be that many people I could do that to and get a way with it without some sort of repercussion!
(thank you sheepman )

[Franck]

Originally Posted by Msfab

And what if the follower doesnt wish to take that particular path?
Ive actually started doing that with one of sheepmans moves/leads, I get halfway (usually behind him) and then decide to go back which he can feel in my resistance.

Well, that would be 'hi-jacking' the lead
It is completely fine, provided that:

1- The lead was light enough that you weren't arm-wrestling.
2- The connection was good enough that the lead would notice a change in your compression / leverage (I guess what you call resistance)
3- The lead was experienced enough and able to respond suitably and in time to your hi-jack
4- You indicated clearly when you've finished hi-jacking so the lead is able to resume leading the dance.

Leading is not about forcing your partner in a particular path, but offering her a very clear path, at all times until such time as she wants to create a different one.

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Msfab

And what if the follower doesnt wish to take that particular path? ...

Don't worry, I'm well used to that! And more power to you... If you can find something better than I was going to lead you to do, then go right ahead...