Automatic Gender Balancing

[Jeremy]

While discussing the Gender Control thread on the Australian Forum we realised that we dont tend to see the gender imbalance in our Sydney classes, at least not long term (varies from week to week).

Here is the thread on the Australian Forum


Why does the UK seem to have such a gender balance issue yet in Australia (or Sydney at very least) we tend to see more even numbers?

[Ronde!]

I am wondering if it might be a culture thing?

I have just done a scan of the whole CS Forum, and there is very little encouragement of dancing with beginners. I did find one thread, which was encouraging, but I think there must be about ten on the (smaller) Aussie forum on the same subject, of how to encourage beginners to dance.

If there arent enough men at dances, I would say the obvious thing to do is get the ladies to ask more male beginners to dance. And even if they aren't the most fabulus dancers in the world to start off with, once they are addicted they will eventually become very satisfactory, I'm sure.

I think this is how the "natural equilibrium" of things happens in Australia, so that we have pretty much balanced gender in every class. As a beginner guy, there were a couple of intermediate/advanced girls who repeatedly asked me to dance, despite my reluctance, despite my mistakes and repertoire of about four moves. At first I was seriously intimidated, but then, kinda flattered that such obviously nice gals would take the time for me! And then I was hooked for good and I've never looked back. I'm sure the demographic makeup of our classes here helped, too... at least 80% of the girls here in Canberra are svelte young 20-somethings, so I really couldn't complain about the company. ))

I guess my question is... how do the ladies in the UK feel about asking beginner guys to dance, and thus ensure the men have a fun time and return?

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Why does the UK seem to have such a gender balance issue yet in Australia (or Sydney at very least) we tend to see more even numbers?

Because there are extremely good-looking male teachers in the UK...

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Ronde!

I have just done a scan of the whole CS Forum, and there is very little encouragement of dancing with beginners. I did find one thread, which was encouraging, but I think there must be about ten on the (smaller) Aussie forum on the same subject, of how to encourage beginners to dance.

If you go to freestyles in the UK you will notice that this is either more a matter of "we don't talk about it, we just dance with beginners" or the forum members are simply not representative for what is going on in this matter. As far as I have noticed there is no difference in people dancing with beginners (or not) in the UK compared to OZ.

Originally Posted by Ronde!

If there arent enough men at dances, I would say the obvious thing to do is get the ladies to ask more male beginners to dance. And even if they aren't the most fabulus dancers in the world to start off with, once they are addicted they will eventually become very satisfactory, I'm sure.

This isn't quite as easy as it sounds. Classes at least around London are considerably larger than what I have seen anywhere else in the world. So to start with there are are more men here than you will see at your classes. BUT while there is more money in the UK, quality of life in OZ is higher. Here people work very long hours and often can't afford more than one hobby (just because of time restraints). So if a guy is keen on football then that will consume a lot of his time. It will be hard to motivate him to do something that his mates find 'uncool' in what little time he has left. The latter one is what I believe the major reasons why so many married ladies don't get their partners to come along.

Originally Posted by Ronde!

I think this is how the "natural equilibrium" of things happens in Australia, so that we have pretty much balanced gender in every class. As a beginner guy, there were a couple of intermediate/advanced girls who repeatedly asked me to dance, despite my reluctance, despite my mistakes and repertoire of about four moves. At first I was seriously intimidated, but then, kinda flattered that such obviously nice gals would take the time for me! And then I was hooked for good and I've never looked back. I'm sure the demographic makeup of our classes here helped, too... at least 80% of the girls here in Canberra are svelte young 20-somethings, so I really couldn't complain about the company. ))

Dancers in OZ (on average) are significantly younger than in the UK. I believe that plays also an important role (see thread of Salsa guy in 'Let's talk about dance' ).

Originally Posted by Ronde!

I guess my question is... how do the ladies in the UK feel about asking beginner guys to dance, and thus ensure the men have a fun time and return?

Mine too

[ducasi]

Originally Posted by Ronde!

I have just done a scan of the whole CS Forum,

So how long did that take you, considering the front page says "Threads: 6,834, Posts: 185,986."

Originally Posted by Ronde!

and there is very little encouragement of dancing with beginners.

It is something i think is talked about often, though I guess we all understand the importance of dancing with beginners to help them improve and keep them coming along.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Why does the UK seem to have such a gender balance issue yet in Australia (or Sydney at very least) we tend to see more even numbers?

Good question. Repeating what I said on the Australian forum:

Originally Posted by Me, on another forum

I'd guess there's less of an underlying dance culture for men in the UK, plus perhaps Ceroc is maybe not seen as such a "sport" in the UK, so there's less competition-based incentive?

Another way of looking at it - what are they doing right in Australia to attract even numbers, which we in the UK could copy?

Originally Posted by ducasi

So how long did that take you, considering the front page says "Threads: 6,834, Posts: 185,986."

185,988 now

Seriously, there hasn't been much recently about beginners here, maybe there should be...

[Icey]

Originally Posted by Ronde!

I guess my question is... how do the ladies in the UK feel about asking beginner guys to dance, and thus ensure the men have a fun time and return?

I'll try to get a dance or two from beginner guys each time I go to my regular class. I've also tried to get my male friends along to a class but they keep resisting me, short of kidnapping them I've got little chance of getting them there.

[LMC]

Even when I'm not taxi-ing, I try to make an effort to dance with at least a couple of beginners. The main thing that guys could do to help themselves is look more available for a dance when they are wanting to be asked: put the drink DOWN unless you're actually drinking (I will rarely ask someone with a glass in their hand unless I know them or really really really want to dance to that track). And if you've joined with your partner/wife, stand and chat, rather than sit, and encourage your partner to dance with other men, because sitting (rather than standing) means that people who don't know you may well assume that you are perfectly content in each other's company and are less likely to ask either of you to dance for fear of offending the other.

Dancing is seen very much as a "girl thing" here - as DJ said, it's not really considered a sport. But its popularity has exploded over the last couple of years after Strictly Come Dancing, celebrity versions and other spin-offs. So maybe the numbers will even out.

[stewart38]

I wonder if we could actually have thread with some facts rather then a lot of loose assumptions

People who go to the various dance classes can 'count' the number of extra ladies or men etc and get a 'feel' in the free style

The forum doesnt really represent your standard cerocer but again threads like this suggest a serious imbalance which isnt true

Sometimes its an Educational issue. at ICE I stood out for 3 dances and no one asked me to dance yet there were loads more ladies ??

I think ladies ask now more then 5 or 10yrs ago (when there were bigger imbalances)

Most imbalances at club level tend to even themselves out over short periods of time

e.g Ive NEVER expereince a continuous excess of ladies at any venue ive attended over the years

[KatieR]

Originally Posted by stewart38

The forum doesnt really represent your standard cerocer but again threads like this suggest a serious imbalance which isnt true

You're talking out the wrong end again Stuart....

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by KatieR

You're talking out the wrong end again Stuart....

Do you think the top 50 posters on here reflect the standard cerocer, id guess not

[TiggsTours]

I'd say its probably a cultural thing.

Guys who go dancing in the UK really aren't a fair picture of the "average British male" who likes to go to the pub, get drunk, smoke things they shouldn't and judges a "good night" on how many times they threw up, how much they remember, and whether or not they were capable of sh*****g the "fit bird" they pulled.

Our boys (as in UK dancers, not UK average, not making any reference to Aussie guys here, who are all lovely too) are far nicer!

[KatieR]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Do you think the top 50 posters on here reflect the standard cerocer, id guess not

I agree with that... it was the 'there is no gender imbalance' comment... you try rotating with 20 other women and then come back and tell me there is no gender imbalance.

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by KatieR

I agree with that... it was the 'there is no gender imbalance' comment... you try rotating with 20 other women and then come back and tell me there is no gender imbalance.

Ill go to chesham tonight and if there are 20 + extra ladies to rotate ill eat my hat . No ill eat something of your choice

FREE MEN TICKETS FOR CHESHAM !!!!

[LMC]

I expect Katie has just spent lots of time commiserating with other female dancers, as I do.

It's rather telling to me that the teacher usually expresses mock-shock/horror/delight in the rare event that there are men over. And a significant number of these men joke about how they aren't used to having to rotate. Welcome to our world guys.

Stewart, there are more women that dance than men. No-one is denying that *sometimes* there are men over. And a *few* venues regularly have men over. However at most venues, most of the time, there are extra women.

[LMC]

Originally Posted by stewart38

Ill go to chesham tonight and if there are 20 + extra ladies to rotate ill eat my hat . No ill eat something of your choice

FREE MEN TICKETS FOR CHESHAM !!!!

Sorry to double-post (cross-post).

If there are more than about 12 ladies in the rotation I get bored and go to the bar, and I bet I'm not the only one.

Class rotation is less important to most of us than freestyle, which forms the main part of the evening. You cannot judge the numbers by class attendance - quite a lot of people sit out at Chesham or go to the bar.

There may not be ladies over in tonight's class, but I'll bet there are a significant number of ladies over in freestyle compared with total numbers there. If you ask very nicely I bet Jilly would give you numbers although it wouldn't be proper to publicise them.

[Donna]

I've never been to a venue where there happens to be more male than females. Getting it to balance is difficult. My dance teacher has been trying it for ages and has never had any luck. If he gets a few new males in the next week through advertising a lot ( in which on his posters he says 'every woman loves a man who can! ) we're guaranteed to get double the amount of woman instead.

Women are more keen on dancing whereas I think most men are simply embarrassed by it...what their mates will think etc. (That's what most men I have tried to drag on the dancefloor have said to me anyway) Such a shame.

[Jooles]

In my experience of ceroc Stewart38 is right. Most people posting are making assumptions that all venues are the same, but all venues have loads of women over. South West London often has men over in the class - not always, but often. There was a time a few years ago on a Wednesday night at Jongleurs when you could often find about twenty men over and the classes themselves were relatively small.

[Jooles]

Originally Posted by Jooles

but all venues have loads of women over. .

Sorry folks that should have read " but NOT all venues have loads of women over"

[KatieR]

Originally Posted by Jooles

In my experience of ceroc Stewart38 is right. Most people posting are making assumptions that all venues are the same, but all venues have loads of women over. South West London often has men over in the class - not always, but often. There was a time a few years ago on a Wednesday night at Jongleurs when you could often find about twenty men over and the classes themselves were relatively small.

Generally speaking... and I have been to quite a lot of different venues, events and freestyles and there is at least 5 to 10 ladies over usually more.