Teaching without Insurance

[Gus]

Was wondering. Is it an offence to teach dance, especially workshops, without public liability insurance? Was wondering about this after hearing about what has been taught on a workshop, which I thought was bordering on the dangerous. All Ceroc and Blitz (and similar profesional instructors) have PLI cover, but I don't know that any of the independants in our region do have cover.

I know its VERY expensive, it cost me about £650 for a year when I was teaching my own workshops, thats why I teach under the umbrella of Blitz However, its seems little unfair that the Big Boys carry insurance whereas (most) of the independants don't ... or am I just being a sad cynical old git as usual

[littlewiggle]

I am actually an Insurance Broker and Public Liability insurance (unlike Employers Liability) is not compulsory. It would be foolish to operate workshops without it as the organisers would leave themselves wide open to potential lawsuits. The venues themselves would have public liability cover built into their buildings and contents insurance but this is for their own benefit - e.g. someone slipping on a wet floor, etc. Hope this helps!

LW x

[philsmove]

As a punter I am not too worried about insurance, I suspect very few people bother to read what they are and are not covered for in any case

Yes I know people have been killed doing aerials, but the most dangerous thing you do is driving to the event

The average person stands a 1:200 chance of being killed in road accident

I go dancing to forget my worries, not to worry about if the organiser is insured

Sorry Gus but I do think you are being a sad cynical old git as usual

Have a warm fuzzy

PS £650 does not, seem to me to, be a lot for public liability insurance

[Gus]

Originally Posted by philsmove

Sorry Gus but I do think you are being a sad cynical old git as usual

One of the consequences of coming from a Risk Assessment background

Originally Posted by philsmove

PS £650 does not, seem to me to, be a lot for public liability insurance

If you pull in only £500 a year from workshops, maybe it would seem a lot then?

[littlewiggle]

Exactly Gus - I take your point. The premium for PL cover alone is rather high but dancing is under the Performing Arts category which Insurers do rate highly.

[Trousers]

Still got the old ODA persona there I see Gus.

Or is there something more interesting lurking behind the cage rattling? Will this make it's way into On8 like the three part interview with a ceroc champ you spoke about. Gosh I hope it's Trampy!

[Gus]

Originally Posted by Trousers

I hope it's Trampy!

As much as I'm not Trampy's greatest fan, I would love to have piece about him in On8, a warts and all piece. He is defintiely one of the more interesting characters on the scene and has a significant following.

Actualy, the Champ is Steve Wongster .... I'm not sure if Trampy has actualy won a Ceroc freestyle event.

Nope ... the insurance piece came up as I'm now running a BPR project at a major UK insurer. The whole thing about people getting unfair advantage by not incurring costs that those who 'do it right' do is one of my little hobby horses. But a fair point was made about the punters not caring. Heck, punters don't even care that the instructors can't even teach properly some the time ....

[David Franklin]

Originally Posted by Gus

Actualy, the Champ is Steve Wongster .... I'm not sure if Trampy has actualy won a Ceroc freestyle event.

Steve Lampart won DWAS and came 3rd in Advanced one year (back when Advanced was the top category). I think it was 2001.

[RogerR]

Working without insurance these days is unwise tho there so far seems no legal liability to insure for PL. coming under the umbrella of a large organisation has its benefits in matters like insurance,accountancy and retained legal advice.

Keep shopping around, I wanted professional fireworks insurance recently and since a new company came into the market premiums have gone down massively.

[MartinHarper]

How many MJ teachers do you know who have had to claim on their PLI?

[under par]

Originally Posted by MartinHarper

How many MJ teachers do you know who have had to claim on their PLI?

And there a list of teachers with 5 years protected no claims bonus..

[clevedonboy]

PLI is a real odd one - when I started running dances I took out cover. If I just bought the cover it would have cost something like £100. But by insuring my DJ equipment for a cost of about £60 I got £1M PLI cover thrown in. I'm unclear if it would cover teaching though.

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by clevedonboy

I'm unclear if it would cover teaching though.

read the small print

PLI is normally very specific
note if you employ someone to help you, even on a casual basis you are required to hold Employers liability

[clevedonboy]

Originally Posted by philsmove

read the small print

PLI is normally very specific
note if you employ someone to help you, even on a casual basis you are required to hold Employers liability

Not making myself clear - I don't need to worry about it as I've no intention of teaching. Just pointing out that there are many ways to get PLI & it need not be expensive, when compared to Events Cover & the like

BTW the same company offers a form of corporate insurance for DJ who employ other DJs

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by clevedonboy

Not making myself clear -

Sorry
Me neither
It was a general comment
Not ment for anyone in particular
=

[Dan Hudson]

Unfortunately and unusually I am with Gus on this. I am not sure if its an offence, but it is a bit reckless.

We have public liability and employers liability insurances.

I also have insurance for the DJ equipment which also carries PLI for £1 million.

I would expect all other operators to have the same

[stewart38]

Originally Posted by RogerR

Keep shopping around, I wanted professional fireworks insurance recently and since a new company came into the market premiums have gone down massively.

Afraid were into another soft market

Originally Posted by philsmove

As a punter I am not too worried about insurance, I suspect very few people bother to read what they are and are not covered for in any case

Yes I know people have been killed doing aerials, but the most dangerous thing you do is driving to the event

The average person stands a 1:200 chance of being killed in road accident

I go dancing to forget my worries, not to worry about if the organiser is insured

Sorry Gus but I do think you are being a sad cynical old git as usual

If I stood a 1 in 200 chance of being killed in a road accident id be bloody concern about Insurance god that’s more then 800 people dying on the streets every day because of a car accidents ! how many 00s you missed off ?

I dont know if a quadriplegic would be happy you had no insurance but its not compulsory.

I was dancing up north and found the wording on a ceroc PL letter/certificate on the front desk ‘interesting’ . The actual Insurer wasn’t shown which is odd

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Gus

...I don't know that any of the independants in our region do have cover.

Remember, some independents can be members of the LeRoc Federation (who get their insurance through that), and some actually do arrange their own (I know Sherif did it that way). Not all independents are cowboys - but you knew that, didn't you, Gus?!

[Andreas]

Interesting topic and even more interesting thread. You know what is MOST PROMINENT when reading this thread? No, it is not actually the discussion of the question raised, it is the following:

Originally Posted by philsmove

Sorry Gus but I do think you are being a sad cynical old git as usual

Originally Posted by Trousers

Still got the old ODA persona there I see Gus.

Originally Posted by Dan Hudson

Unfortunately and unusually I am with Gus on this.

Originally Posted by Lou

but you knew that, didn't you, Gus?!

You guys are so incredibly welcoming. You may or may not like the questions Gus raises. You may or may not have had bad experiences with topics started by Gus in the past. Whatever your motivation is, phrases like the above do not throw a bad image on Gus, not at all, they throw a bad image on you guys. These comments are completely and utterly redundant! To loosely quote the bible: "Those of you who are without fault may throw the first stone." It appears there are quite a few faultless people among us. Can't you see that even if Gus conciously tried to establish a peaceful life among the other forum members, you are constantly trying to geopardise his attempts, and by doing so poison the atmosphere for others?

I also do occasionally read the issues Gus raises and wonder 'why bring it up, it is a can of worms'. But if I don't want to discuss it then I'll stay clear of the topic. If I do want to discuss it then I don't lash out at him in whatever way, no matter if I agree or disagree with him!

End of rant!


------------------------

Back to topic.

In NZ a lot, perhaps all of the independent teachers will not be insured. There (and quite possibly also in the UK) possibly not a single one of the Salsa 'schools' have an insurance like that. I am not totally certain about the differences in insurance coverage there and here that is done through the government. Sports injuries in NZ are covered to a certain extend but I am not sure if the government would claim the expenses back from the dance school.

So yes, it is a grey area. My advice would be to have people sign their lives away on entering the dance floor. This is reasonably common practice in NZ that you hand out a 'no liability' form at some of the events. And as far as I am aware, in NZ that is valid at court, not sure about the UK though.

[philsmove]

Originally Posted by Andreas

You guys are so incredibly welcoming. .

it was Gus who suggested he was being a "sad cynical old git as usual"

and i had to agree with him


He has raised an interesting issue

My own take on the subject is


If I was a teacher, (I am not) I would defiantly take out insurance to project myself should someone claim against me


I f I do something risky, e.g. skiing I take out my own insurance, and I do not rely on the ski company being insured

If I go dancing I am not worried about my instructor being insured as I consider the chances of me having a claim against my instructor very small

Originally Posted by Dan Hudson

Unfortunately and unusually I am with Gus on this. I am not sure if its an offence, but it is a bit reckless.
:

if the instructor has a house / wife and kids to support, I agree he would be reckless to teach without insurance

But PLI for dancing instructors is not fortunatly not mandatory