Beginners moving to Intermediate

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by LMC

Except that too many followers *don't* develop into their proper role, even after dancing for four or five years - particularly if they are dancing at the same venue every week and only at that venue, often with the same people. Bad habits are terribly difficult to break and without some constructive and positively delivered "feedback" most average Ceroc punters don't know that they have bad habits...

Sad, but true.

Leaders do develop a lead after a while, particularly if they dance with beginners - they have to! However, too many are "lost" before that time, possibly because they don't feel like they are in control of the dance as the leader is supposed to be.

My guess is that even more would be lost if they though "I can't do this." I believe that the fact that even hapless leaders can come and enjoy themselves in blissful ignorance is a major factor in the success of Ceroc. It keeps the men coming.

[killingtime]

Originally Posted by LMC

Part of the "problem" IMO is the focus on "more moves" - if you go dancing more than once a week then it is simply not possible to remember 3 or 4 new moves from every lesson.

Very true. I used to write them down (I still often take very abstract notes) but I've found it much earlier to learn how a segment of move works and then if I'm the right position just do that and hopefully, if I know enough of those, my dance will be fluid. Of course even though I read about the fact that being a move textbook didn't really matter I still ignored those wise people and attempted to learn everything. Badly.

Originally Posted by LMC

Finally, please please please can we get rid of the "six weeks to intermediate".

. It's like saying, "six weeks you'll proficient enough to move up a class; if not then you are just being slow". I imagine that people who don't think they are ready will move up just because they feel pressured to.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Your wife

They usually say do the repeat beginners class for 3 - 6 weeks before moving up to intermediate. I don't know how long you've been dancing, but I'm sure I've seen your contributions to this sight go back much further than that. What are you doing?!?!?!

hehe.. ah yes.. my 2003 ceroc join date. no I have not been dancing for 3 years.. I joined for about 8 weeks back in 2003 then had a 3 year absence and have had another 8 weeks or so now.

first time round I did a couple of beginner workshops and this time round I've been going at least once, sometimes twice and rarely three times a week and been to a couple of parties.. (admittedly I only stayed 10 mins at the first one) plus I work through the beginners DVD at least twice a week at home.. by myself..

but yeah I should "probably" think about moving up.. but I like the comfort of the beginners class.. and there are still some beginner's moves I'm not that good at and could do with more practice.

[Trish]

Originally Posted by Gadget

I think that the main "problem" with the beginners moving into intermediates is that you suddenly feel like you loose the taxi dancers: during the beginners stage of dancing, they are promoted as people to ask and get feedback from. Move up to intermediates, and who do you ask when you feel that something isn't quite right?
The teacher? Intimidating, and often hard to catch.
Friends or experianced dancers? why spoil/waist a dance?
Taxis? guilt because they are meant for beginners only.

So people just go and try it on the social dance floor and work things out by trial and error. Is this the best way to practice/learn/iron out the flaws? It's what I do, but it's been a long time since I was a beginner moving into intermediates.

Yes I agree with you Gadget. I found when I was a taxi that if I had danced with the all the beginners that night I would swap my attention to the early intermediates and they'd then often come and ask me for help on other occasions. Personally I think without this help it's really hard for men unless they're confident enough to ask themselves, which a lot of them aren't. I also used to encourage people to find someone they get on with in the class and ask near the beginning if they'd help them out afterwards in freestyle. Most people don't mind this as long as it isn't all night!

As far as easier/harder routines go, I agree with telling the class. Saying the class is easier cuts out two problems - those that don't like easier classes can have a drink and chat rather than moaning that the class is too easy, and those moving up know it should be more possible for them. On the other hand if you know it's a harder class, you get a sense of achivement at the end if you get it, and if you don't then you can just shug your shoulders and say maybe next time. Kirsty at Peterborough usually does tell people, and most people seem to find it helpful.

[Birlmeister]

Given the number of weekenders there are, eg 4 x Aberdeen beach ballroom, 2 x focus on weekends in Kirrie and the BFG in Glasgow, in addition to alternative dance style workshops for the more adventurous dancers, why not incorporate an Introduction to Intermediate workshop into the weekend for the beginners wanting to move up. This way they could gain confidence in learning and dancing the moves through and then put them into practice at a party night when there would be less pressure on them.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by Birlmeister

why not incorporate an Introduction to Intermediate workshop into the weekend for the beginners wanting to move up. This way they could gain confidence in learning and dancing the moves through and then put them into practice at a party night when there would be less pressure on them.

I this not what the Beginner Plus workshops are for??????

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Freya

I this not what the Beginner Plus workshops are for??????

well i dunno.. If this is not what I did the last time round .. but what they did was go over some of the beginners moves and make them better executed.. Mind you this was three years ago so things may have changed somewhat since then..

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Birlmeister

... why not incorporate an Introduction to Intermediate workshop into the weekend for the beginners wanting to move up.

To re-word Freya's comment; what would this contain that's not in a "Beginner Plus" workshop?

[Dazzler]

I realise that this conversation has evolved somewhat from the original post, but i just have to say that as a newcomer to the ceroc world i find some of the intermediate moves to be far more complicated than others as already stated somewhere along the line. The point i am trying to make is, no-one should be scared of trying to go up a class and if it seems out of your reach then there is no shame in simply re-joining the revision class....is there? i some times feel at the start of the class.."oh no!..i'm never going to manage that!" but when its broken down and you work through it a couple of times...it just kinda falls into place!

[Gadget]

Originally Posted by Dazzler

... as a newcomer to the ceroc world i find some of the intermediate moves to be far more complicated than others ...

Curious: can you give an example of the more complex ones?

I'm just trying to figure out what makes it seem 'complex': is it twisty arm moves, timeing, having to rotate/move yourself while doing something, doing different things with different hands,...?

Or is it that it seems familure (from the beginner move it's rooted in), but when you think it goes one way, it actually goes another?

Or is it that when it's demmoed it's done with some added "style"?

??

[Dazzler]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Curious: can you give an example of the more complex ones?

I'm just trying to figure out what makes it seem 'complex': is it twisty arm moves, timeing, having to rotate/move yourself while doing something, doing different things with different hands,...?

Or is it that it seems familure (from the beginner move it's rooted in), but when you think it goes one way, it actually goes another?

Or is it that when it's demmoed it's done with some added "style"?

??

I wld have to say its a combination of the things you have stated...the added style although looks better it can be rather intimidating on your first night...suddenly you are confronted with movements you just have not had to do previously!
The thing in particular i find most problematic is actually leading the more complex moves....for example..there is a move which ends up in a flamenco style turn/walk...i find this so difficult to lead...perhaps my lead has just not progressed enough so far?

[jiveoholic]

I failed to get to the end of my first two intermediate classes!

I would ask teachers to always teach the most difficult move last, then if you can't get it, you can at least do the first three in succession and then fail!

There is nothing worse that fluffing the first (ie not second etc) move as it is repeated so many times in conjunction with the rest.

[Gadget]

Isn't that an argument for putting the complex one at the start? Then you have lots more chances to try it, practice it and attempt to get it right.

[Dazzler]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Isn't that an argument for putting the complex one at the start? Then you have lots more chances to try it, practice it and attempt to get it right.

I have to say i agree with Gadget on that one...i find if i cant get the first move to start with then by the end of the class its drummed into my brain!

I much prefer that than gettin all the first 3 moves repeated and getting lax only to have a really tough move thrown in at the end!

[jiveoholic]

Originally Posted by Gadget

Isn't that an argument for putting the complex one at the start? Then you have lots more chances to try it, practice it and attempt to get it right.

There is some logic in your reply....however I hated it. End of story! One must consider the psychological feelings of a beginner, just self-promoted to intermediates who can't even get the first move right and is all off-put so is unable to merge into the second and thirds moves. You also feel so stupid and wasting the time of each lady.

[Dazzler]

Originally Posted by jiveoholic

You also feel so stupid and wasting the time of each lady.

From what i can gather through doing the classes...women tend to be very sympathetic and understanding.they realise we are learning to lead aswell as the move itself!

Am sure these feelings are unjustified and you not let that stop you from trying...cerocers are great people who are glad to help...specially if it means another intermediate male!

[jiveoholic]

Originally Posted by Dazzler

From what i can gather through doing the classes...women tend to be very sympathetic and understanding.they realise we are learning to lead aswell as the move itself!

Am sure these feelings are unjustified and you not let that stop you from trying...cerocers are great people who are glad to help...specially if it means another intermediate male!

Everything you say is right. However 7 years later, I can vividly remember how I felt.

Feelings!

[Stuart M]

Originally Posted by jiveoholic

There is some logic in your reply....however I hated it. End of story! One must consider the psychological feelings of a beginner, just self-promoted to intermediates who can't even get the first move right and is all off-put so is unable to merge into the second and thirds moves. You also feel so stupid and wasting the time of each lady.

I kind of lean towards jiveholic's view rather than Gadget's - from the perspective of the new Intermediate dancer, there's nothing more depressing than finally braving the Intermediate class, only to find you can't even do the first move. I went through it myself many times. To extend a well-worn analogy, I'd rather have many people doing simple Intermediate moves well, than a few doing complex moves badly.

Related to the original subject, we've had at least one guy recently at JJ's jumping into the Intermediate class when he was clearly not ready. It's incredibly frustrating as a taxi to hear of this happening, but we're not in a position to do anything about it. I mean either in terms of our responsibilities or the simple logistics (the taxis are taking the refresher class at the time, so we only hear of issues in the Intermediate class second hand). We can advise beginners at the end of the refresher class about when they should "move up", but that's it really.

Originally Posted by Kes

I think it would be great if Franck gave just a wee word or two at the end of the beginners class about the difficulty level of the intermediate class to follow, so that there is time for those in doubt to make up their minds and be in the right (or more suitable at this stage) class by the time they start.

This sounds like a good idea.

Originally Posted by LMC

I am pleased to hear more teachers saying something along the lines of "if you are confident with all the beginners' moves then you can do the intermediate class". MORE of that please, it sets a better standard.

Not so sure about this one - significant numbers of dancers (and they're usually male leads) have a confidence level which exceeds their ability. At all levels, I would add.

Originally Posted by Freya

Maybe there should be a taxi dancer a night that instead of focusing just on beginners after the refresher class could go and ask those people who have just moved up into intermediates if they had any difficulties would like to work on anything the same way they do with beginners! or something similar! I'm always happy to help people go over moves .

But I think there does tend to be a feeling of abandonment after you leave the beginners class!

There's a case for busy venues having a third taxi dancer, who doesn't help with the refresher class but does the Intermediate class instead. That would reduce the "abandonment factor", by having taxis still visible to those stepping up.

One (little) idea I'd thought of in the past was calling the "Beginners" class a "Basics" class. For the improving dancer, the term "Beginner" comes across as a little condescending. Maybe just my perception of semantics though, I'm sure there are folk who find the idea of a class being called "Basics" insulting. And, I know, inaccurate in this case .

[Miguel]

Do any Ceroc teachers use the routines taught in the Intermediate parts 1 & 2 dvd's? It could be very helpful to new intermediates if they could review the class at home.

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by Stuart M

One (little) idea I'd thought of in the past was calling the "Beginners" class a "Basics" class.

It's not a Basics class, so it shouldn't be called a Basics class.