Beginners moving to Intermediate

[Kes]

Hey! This might sound like a bit of a rant, but it's something that I think is worth discussing (if it hasn't been done already that is! ).

Last Tuesday at Jumpin' Jack's (Glasgow) I noticed that the Intermediate class was particularly tricky and also noticed that it put some beginners off when they decided to make this one their first Intermediate attempt (ones with over 12 weeks experience). I thought it was a bit of a shame, as the class was more difficult than it usually is.
I myself am of an opinion that it is much harder for men to make this initial transaction from the beginner classes (although I know that some might not agree) and if a lot of men are put off the intermediate level, but at the same time they are getting tired of the basic moves, we might start losing them all together and it's not like we have spares!

I was at the Glasgow beginners workshop in June and the lovely Lorna who took the class said that at her venue before the Intermediate class starts, she gives a little warning whether it would be a good class for someone who would like to give intermediate a go for the first time or the opposite - might not be such a good idea that particular week.

I think it would be great if Franck gave just a wee word or two at the end of the beginners class about the difficulty level of the intermediate class to follow, so that there is time for those in doubt to make up their minds and be in the right (or more suitable at this stage) class by the time they start.

I hope I'm not treading on forbidden ground here by saying all this. I really enjoy Tuesdays, but I think, as confidence is so important in Ceroc dancing, it's important not to let dancers loose it, just because on an off chance difficult class.

Would love to find out what everybody else thinks!

[Beowulf]

I'm a beginner (honest) and I've yet to face an intermediate class yet. Sometimes When I'm doing the beginners class I'm sometimes quite relived as the intermediate always looks quite complicated. I'm probably over due to move up but I often take the chickens route and stay on the easier beginners revision class.

It might be a good idea to have some sort of cycle say over a period of a few weeks, start with a set of easy intermediate moves building up to the more complicated moves over a period of a few weeks. That way beginners could move up when the cycle is easiest?

[jockey]

Originally Posted by Kes

Hey! This might sound like a bit of a rant, but it's something that I think is worth discussing (if it hasn't been done already that is! ).

Last Tuesday at Jumpin' Jack's (Glasgow) I noticed that the Intermediate class was particularly tricky and also noticed that it put some beginners off when they decided to make this one their first Intermediate attempt (ones with over 12 weeks experience). I thought it was a bit of a shame, as the class was more difficult than it usually is.
I myself am of an opinion that it is much harder for men to make this initial transaction from the beginner classes (although I know that some might not agree) and if a lot of men are put off the intermediate level, but at the same time they are getting tired of the basic moves, we might start losing them all together and it's not like we have spares!

I was at the Glasgow beginners workshop in June and the lovely Lorna who took the class said that at her venue before the Intermediate class starts, she gives a little warning whether it would be a good class for someone who would like to give intermediate a go for the first time or the opposite - might not be such a good idea that particular week.

I think it would be great if Franck gave just a wee word or two at the end of the beginners class about the difficulty level of the intermediate class to follow, so that there is time for those in doubt to make up their minds and be in the right (or more suitable at this stage) class by the time they start.

I hope I'm not treading on forbidden ground here by saying all this. I really enjoy Tuesdays, but I think, as confidence is so important in Ceroc dancing, it's important not to let dancers loose it, just because on an off chance difficult class.

Would love to find out what everybody else thinks!

Reminds me of a recent experience at Fleet when Mick Wenger (he of the fiendishly difficult "intermediate" lessons at Fulham circa 2002) did his monthly class - a routine involving a slotted double pretzel. I got a lady whose first intermediate class this was. Well, she was all at sea and got a bump in the mouth from my elbow.
She left the class ("I cant go on with this..") I found her after the class to find out how she was. We agreed that 1. She shoouldnt have been in the clas and 2. that it wasnt my fault (wether she really believed that I dont know..).
She DID come the following week but, as you suggest, some others might not.
No warning was given that it might be difficult but Mick did do the whole routine (with Helen) right through at the beginning so you could argue she knew what she was getting into and it was her choice.
(I should add that I have 6 years experience and freestyle conyinuous pretzels ad infinitum.)

[bigdjiver]

Our local teachers will say early on if the intermediate is a bit easier this week. Since the hot weather makes the review room into an oven they have deliberately dumbed down the intermediate so that the beginners could join in.

[MartinHarper]

When I started learning, I was told (often!) that it's ok to move up a class and then decide it's too difficult and move back down again. So I did a lot of that. Having the teacher and other dancers reassure me that this was perfectly fine did a lot to keep my confidence up during this process. Same again with Int1 -> Int2 and Int2 -> "specials".

This was JazzJive/TRDC, so I also got the benefit of "terms", which is kinda like the cycles Beowulf1970 is suggesting, only lasting around 15 weeks instead of 4 weeks.

[under par]

I have previously posted about the importance of retaining those new men dancers who cross the threshold of modern jive establishments everywhere.

I know there are some great female leaders and I am equally sure most females started dancing to be a follower but have taken up leading to fill a gap in the lack of male leaders. So except for a few female leaders who started dancing to lead(for whom this particular post is not about) I am refering to mainly to new men/leaders in this post.

So here is my attempt at a structured argument.

Without leaders there is no modern jive in my opinion. Full stop. Period.


The modern jive industry is out there like every other form of entertainment to put bums on seats, having taken the punters hard earned wonga.
(I know dancers don't sit down most of the time I just liked the phrase!)

If there are not enough men to lead the ladies at a venue. I suggest that:
1. customers will be disatisfied with not being able to dance to most tracks
2. Customers want a quality lead not just any old beginner
3. some customers will stop attending due to disatisfaction
4.then profits will eventually decline.
5. venues suffer.
6. the health of the nation suffers
7. some venues may close.
8. everyone loses out.

So if the bottom line is you can't modern jive without leaders..... it is important that any men that put their foot in the door should be treated like the potential cash cows they could become to the modern jive industry.

They should be looked after well, cajoled, coerced, and mollycoddled into becoming good/great leaders for the benefit of womenkind and a profitable modern jive future.

There are always still far more women than men at most venues and the new women generally support modern jive longer than new men.

WHY?

Learning to lead is infinitey more difficult for new dancers than following for the same new dancers in my opinion.

I suggest at this very early stage of the development of the new leader,when they have just gotten the courage up to enter the modern jive venue is when I suggest the modern jive industry should have contingency plans and facilities to fast track new leaders.
Give them the special treatment DVDs,videos, books, tuition, tutorials, mentoring in fact anything at all which could reasonably be expected to make this novice into a confident competent leader as soon as possible.

The result. More good leaders/men the more women/followers you can service and as I have previously said above there always more followers than leaders.

By my reckoning then more leaders = more followers = more wonga

Everyone is very happy.

The better the quality of the men/leader should lead to the better quality of follower which would inevitabley lead to the need for a higher standard teacher.
Is this the flaw in my structured argument?

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by under par

...that any men ..... should be treated like .... cash cows ...

...Is this the flaw in my structured argument?

bull?


otherwise

[ducasi]

No matter how relatively hard or easy the intermediate class is, and no matter whether the teacher bills it as such (and I'd guess it's sometimes difficult to judge, as what's hard for one person might be easy for another, and visa-versa) there will always occasionally be beginners in the intermediate class who are not ready to make the transition.

[Princess Fi]

It can't be easy to strike a balance though for whoever is taking the class. On the one hand where the intermediates are fairly easy/straightforward (and thus beginner/new intermediate friendly), you risk getting complaints from the more experienced dancers because they aren't challenged enough. In the same way, you make it too difficult, you risk getting comments that beginners are being put off going up to the intermediate level.

I'm not sure having a special "beginners' coming up to intermediates" class is really going to be that helpful. So you come up to intermediate the one night, and you find it ok. If the next night the class goes up to a more complex level, you are going to be just as put off as you would be it your first intermediate night.

I remember my first intermediate class - it was horrible. Really horrible. But I stuck with it and got better. But do you not think that some people will have had similar problems with their first night at beginners?

I think the main focus shouldn't necessarily be on creating intermediate classes that are easier, but on providing additional support and reassurance. Emphasising the workshops, and mentioning that it will probably take some time to get used to the intermediate classes before you get really good at them. Its the exact same as complete newbies starting in beginners' classes.

This way if someone really could use with a few extra weeks at the beginner's level, you don't risk them coming up early because of a fluke 'easy' class.

[FXS N.Q]

Originally Posted by ducasi

No matter how relatively hard or easy the intermediate class is, and no matter whether the teacher bills it as such (and I'd guess it's sometimes difficult to judge, as what's hard for one person might be easy for another, and visa-versa) there will always occasionally be beginners in the intermediate class who are not ready to make the transition.

I agree with Ducasi. I sometimes find an intermediate class harder one week and then mabye easier the next week. Last Tuesday's moves were quite tricky but I'm glad that we did do them as in over a year that is the first time I've had a chance to learn a pretzel in a class.

[LMC]

to wot UP said.

Part of the "problem" IMO is the focus on "more moves" - if you go dancing more than once a week then it is simply not possible to remember 3 or 4 new moves from every lesson. More focus on technique during teaching and more emphasis on not trying to remember every single new move wouldn't go amiss. I tell newer intermediate guys to "pick one" that they like from an intermediate lesson and focus on getting that one smoothly into their repertoire - if they are dancing 2 or 3 times a week it still won't take long to expand the number of moves they know - and they'll be dancing them better.

I think part of the frustration with a lot of new leads is that they haven't been taught to actually lead - just to perform moves. And from just going to Ceroc classes with no other "input", very few of them have a hope in hell of working out why something isn't working - this forum/rec.dance/AfterFive can supply some of the theory, but as UP suggests, what beginner leads really need is a kind dancer who knows the theory of technique and can explain the basics simply to get leads leading.

Followers need to learn to follow too - or leads just get frustrated. I've lost count of the number of times I've danced with a newish lead who comments that they actually feel like they are leading me. Great compliment. But sad that it happens so often.

...there will always occasionally be beginners in the intermediate class who are not ready to make the transition.

As MH says, there should be "no shame" in returning to review classes. There will unfortunately more than occasionally be "advanced" dancers in the intermediate class who could do with some training on the basics

Finally, please please please can we get rid of the "six weeks to intermediate". I am pleased to hear more teachers saying something along the lines of "if you are confident with all the beginners' moves then you can do the intermediate class". MORE of that please, it sets a better standard.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by Princess Fi

...I'm not sure having a special "beginners' coming up to intermediates" class is really going to be that helpful. So you come up to intermediate the one night, and you find it ok. If the next night the class goes up to a more complex level, you are going to be just as put off as you would be it your first intermediate night...

I think few will be "just as put off". The new intermediate will at least know that the class will not always be that difficult, and will have had the experience of meeting some of the "only intermediate" class attenders, and discovered that most of those are just as helpful as those they met in the beginners.

[whitetiger1518]

I had my first Intermediate class as a follower last Wednesday at GUU. I thoroughly enjoyed following the moves.. Some of them I had attempted in freestyle and I seemed to be getting a lot better by the end of the night - Much thanks goes to CJ in particular, who walked me through the moves twice in freestyle..



See you in Jumping Jaks tomorrow, I will try again in a new venue (for me anyway )

Whitetiger

[Gadget]

I think that the main "problem" with the beginners moving into intermediates is that you suddenly feel like you loose the taxi dancers: during the beginners stage of dancing, they are promoted as people to ask and get feedback from. Move up to intermediates, and who do you ask when you feel that something isn't quite right?
The teacher? Intimidating, and often hard to catch.
Friends or experianced dancers? why spoil/waist a dance?
Taxis? guilt because they are meant for beginners only.

So people just go and try it on the social dance floor and work things out by trial and error. Is this the best way to practice/learn/iron out the flaws? It's what I do, but it's been a long time since I was a beginner moving into intermediates.

[bigdjiver]

Originally Posted by LMC

...I think part of the frustration with a lot of new leads is that they haven't been taught to actually lead - just to perform moves...

Actually I think this is part of the "hidden art" in the Ceroc model. We all learn the routines together. Even if the lead is bumbling and fumbling the follower knows the move and does it anyway. Terrible for technique, but great for the confidence. The leaders and followers can at least be doing a dance that works well enough to please them while they develop into their own pace into their proper roles.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by Gadget

and who do you ask when you feel that something isn't quite right?
The teacher? Intimidating, and often hard to catch.
Friends or experianced dancers? why spoil/waist a dance?
Taxis? guilt because they are meant for beginners only.

I tend to ask friends about intermediate moves or say do you mind if we try out this move!!!! and luckily Although hard to catch we have some wonderful teachers up here that aren't too intimidating!

Maybe there should be a taxi dancer a night that instead of focusing just on beginners after the refresher class could go and ask those people who have just moved up into intermediates if they had any difficulties would like to work on anything the same way they do with beginners! or something similar! I'm always happy to help people go over moves .

But I think there does tend to be a feeling of abandonment after you leave the beginners class!

[Your wife]

Originally Posted by Beowulf1970

I'm a beginner (honest) and I've yet to face an intermediate class yet. Sometimes When I'm doing the beginners class I'm sometimes quite relived as the intermediate always looks quite complicated. I'm probably over due to move up but I often take the chickens route and stay on the easier beginners revision class.

They usually say do the repeat beginners class for 3 - 6 weeks before moving up to intermediate. I dont know how long you've been dancing, but I'm sure I've seen your contributions to this sight go back much further than that. What are you doing?!?!?!

The intermediate class looks quite complicated, but like the beginners its broken down into easy to learn steps. You should take a risk and try it this week just for a change. Otherwise you'll end up borred out of your noggin learning the first move for the 154th time, (unless of course your a taxi dancer).

Go-on, I double dare you!

[LMC]

Originally Posted by bigdjiver

The leaders and followers can at least be doing a dance that works well enough to please them while they develop into their own pace into their proper roles.

Except that too many followers *don't* develop into their proper role, even after dancing for four or five years - particularly if they are dancing at the same venue every week and only at that venue, often with the same people. Bad habits are terribly difficult to break and without some constructive and positively delivered "feedback" most average Ceroc punters don't know that they have bad habits.

Leaders do develop a lead after a while, particularly if they dance with beginners - they have to! However, too many are "lost" before that time, possibly because they don't feel like they are in control of the dance as the leader is supposed to be.