How to surprise a lady

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Stuart M
However, I can't think of good ways to surprise partners, other than a handful of moves (e.g. the lady-spin where you reverse the spin half-way through), and they're not too popular I have found. Maybe a subject worthy of a new thread?

A few ideas:

• Empty the dishwasher.
• Come home when (or even before!) you said you would.
• Cook 2 days in a row.
• Notice her new hairstyle.

As for dancing surprises:

• Blend one move into another
• Rotate the dance anticlockwise
• Catch a spin in closed position
• Do a move backwards
• Don't let the lady move - instead move around her
• But the most important one for me is to be flexible. ie dont assume you are going to finish the move you started. Instead if the lady does something unexpected, or gives you an idea or an opportunity, do something different

But I have been told several times that it can feel like the man is just trying to catch the lady out. To me this implies that I'm trying too hard. A surprise is only a surprise if you don't doo it too often.

David

[John McAulay]

One I've used in the past, I think is quite funny!
Its also a good check if your partners still breathing, is:

Octopus in to basket
then instead of nudging your partner out to finish
let go on your left hand
and pull back on your right very very fast
a bit like rip starting an old petrol lanwmower.

its always good to stay close to pick up the bits that fly off
if she got false teeth be careful to duck.

(ps. I dont want any replies from the other sex saying how cruel this move is.
this is a bloke thread so there!)

[Amanda]

this is a bloke thread so there!

...not if us girlies have anything to do with it John. Looking forward already to being 'rip started' tomorrow night...


Amanda

[Heather]

I've heard some comparisons before, but this takes the biscuit !!!!!! Old petrol lawnmover indeed!!!!!

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Heather
I've heard some comparisons before, but this takes the biscuit !!!!!! Old petrol lawnmover indeed!!!!!

I once learned a move that I call the "motor mower pull start" (236), currently referenced from the home page and at http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk/temp-motormower.htm the only difference is that the lady is horizontal and you have to pull like the first time since winter in order to combat gravity!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
you have to pull like the first time since winter in order to combat gravity!

I find that a quick squirt of WD-40 works wonders...

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
As for dancing surprises:

/SNIP/ list of great suggestions for surprising your partner on the dance floor.
There are lots of tricks for spicing up your normal sequence of moves, most of the involve subtle variations on basic moves / patterns, like changing , extending or replacing the return...
This is pretty much the curriculum of the Intermediate workhsop which teaches you many ways of thinking differently during Freestyle, using specially designed routines.

Originally posted by DavidB
But I have been told several times that it can feel like the man is just trying to catch the lady out. To me this implies that I'm trying too hard. A surprise is only a surprise if you don't doo it too often.

Well, I make it my mission to catch my partner out as much as possible (just to check who is really leading ). Of course, this does not apply to Beginners, where too many surprises can be counter productive

Franck.

[filthycute]

Well, I make it my mission to catch my partner out as much as possible (just to check who is really leading ).

Oh yeah!! i forgot about that drop you did....BAD MAN!!!!!
that was one helluva surprise!

what was it anyway?...was kinda interesting actually

filthycute x x

[JMW]

My favourite surprise move at the moment is a variation on the First Move Lock.

Start like a first move opening the lady out to your right hand side (making sure you step back on your left foot). Instead of bringing the lady back in front of you like a normal First Move or First Move Lock; take a very small step in front of your partner with your right foot (while she's still pivoted out behind you), pivot on the ball of this foot 180 degrees clockwise to face your partner at the same time raising your left hand to turn your partner anti-clockwise 360 degrees and keep your right hand at her waist to catch her left hip as she completes the turn. You should now have your partner locked into a close ballroom hold. This in one beat. [This contrasts with a First Move Lock where she finishes at your right hand side]. Finish with your favourite ballroom turn - I like a Telemark or a natural spin turn.

Only two victims so far, and both were surprised!

JW.

[LilyB]

Quote "Well, I make it my mission to catch my partner out as much as possible ......"

As a dancer with more than 15 years experience in partner dancing, I can tell you that I (personally at least) DO NOT take kindly to being "caught out" or to anyone trying to "catch me out". That does not mean I do not like surprises - in fact I rather enjoy dancing with a partner who does moves which are different and/or unusual.

However, "catching someone out" is a totally different ball-game. It implies doing something which is intended to deceive or trick the other person, thus making it (or intending it to be) impossible for that other person to follow. If that is the case, why bother with leading? In fact, to then follow up the above remarks with ".. just to check who is really leading.." is entirely misleading (no pun intended!). If that is the intention, it is much easier (& works everytime) to simply NOT LEAD at all - that way you really WILL catch your partner out all of the time! She won't have a clue what's going on and you will have achieved your mission.

For those interested in a follower's viewpoint (on this thread), I find it extremely irritating when a man tries a "new" move on a partner:- 1) which she is not expecting, 2) which he hasn't prepped her in any way at all for, and 3) when she is in a position which makes it practically impossible for her to do what he expects of her. The first thing that enters my head is - what a prat!!!! The next thing is - he obviously hasn't thought out the move properly before trying it, and finally - he is obviously trying to catch me out in order to make himself look good, or to make me look bad, or to wrench my shoulder or break my arm, etc etc...

If a man genuinely wishes to "surprise" his partner with unusual or unexpected moves in order to keep her interested, he should do so by giving her the best possible opportunity of following his moves and maybe even enhance them. He should take care to either prep her properly (without necessarily giving the game away), or make sure that she is on balance, or on the correct foot, or supported properly, before he starts the move. If he does NONE of these, then in my view he is obviously an inconsiderate, unconcerned, selfish partner who is dancing purely for his own pleasure. Or he is just plain ignorant!!!

Just my personal opinion guys!

[Jayne]

Hi Lily,

I agree! This is EXACTLY how I feel but I couldn't bring myself to post it on the forum! The move that some guys do that REALLY bugs me is signal behind their back, you go to take their hand then they whip it away, turn and face you and pull a face at you. If I was five or very drunk this would be funny, but... I'm afraid my usual response to this is to refuse to take his hand for the next couple of moves

As for surprises, I like it when a guy puts a different combination of moves together (a different ending to a move, for example). I also like dancing with a new partner (especially from somewhere else - they usually have a neat move that I wouldn't normally come across). Having said that, I also dance with a guy who has a limited number of moves and you know exactly what you're going to get when you dance with him - but he dances well, leads you into the moves and smiles at you. I don't ask for much more (on the dancefloor, I hasten to add...)

Jayne

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by Jayne
The move that some guys do that REALLY bugs me is signal behind their back, you go to take their hand then they whip it away, turn and face you and pull a face at you. If I was five or very drunk this would be funny, but... I'm afraid my usual response to this is to refuse to take his hand for the next couple of moves
Jayne

If you mean the "false pretzel start" then I think it is a shame that move bugs you. Perhaps it was not done well or with a smug smile on the man's face. However it is a highly important move. The man's right hand behind his back is place there to get you to turn clockwise into his LHS and under his arm. Without it you would not know what he wanted. His removal of the hand then tells you that it was not a real pretzel but this technique of getting you to go under his arm. There are then so many possibilities after this point (I have 18 noted down but can remember about 3!) that you can have all the surprises you wish!

I would hate this thread to get too heavy. I think the men here have had a well deserved shot across the bows! Lets lighten up now and be more forgiving - it is supposed to be fun - otherwise I would do ballroom (now that might start another thread!)

[Franck]

Originally posted by LilyB
Just my personal opinion guys!

Thanks for clarifying the "Catching my partner out" bit in my post above. I agree with you on most points, catching out your partner, does not mean making her look bad / or feel uncomfortable. It was all meant from a surprise perspective.
You should also bear in mind, that as an experienced dancer / follower (15 years) you have sufficient experience to follow men in the most exotic variations on moves. However, a lot of women who have only danced a few months / years, might not have been exposed to so many variations and as a result, anticipate moves, thereby limiting the man's ability to lead a different outcome. In that case, I do try to "lead" a bit more clearly and "catch out" my partner before she can close the option by leading herself into the basic finish of whatever move. This is not done to show off, or to embarass my partner, but genuinely to open up new doors.
Surprising your partner can involve rapid changes of direction / leading extra turns / returns, interrupting moves early, etc... and while those can (should) take your partner unaware, leading the move accurately, and ensuring that your partner will:[list=1][*]be able to follow your variation.[*]be comfortable with the change.[*]Have sufficient space to do it.[*]Be on the right foot / correct posture / balance.[*]likely to enjoy the variation.[/list=1] is paramount.

I hope this clarifies further.

Cheers,

Franck.

[Stuart M]

LilyB helps make an important distinction: "surprising" your dance partner is one thing, trying to "catch her out" is something else. There's an element of attitude in it, as long as you make it look fun rather than a smug "gotcha!" I think it's OK. I try to limit such moves to one per record at most (honestly, Fifi !).

Other surprise tactics are better/worse - me doing a seducer without any problems would be a big surprise, but not much fun if it just results in my usual attempt Whereas starting to dance round my partner halfway through a routine usually gets a smile

18 variations following on from a false pretzel start? I only know 2!

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jayne
The move that some guys do that REALLY bugs me is signal behind their back, you go to take their hand then they whip it away, turn and face you and pull a face at you. If I was five or very drunk this would be funny, but... I'm afraid my usual response to this is to refuse to take his hand for the next couple of moves

Ok, I'll put my hand up for this one. :sorry This is definitely my (and probably other Ceroc teachers') fault. When we teach the Almost Pretzel (the move you describe above), we often emphasize the need for eye contact / fun by suggesting the men pull a face!
This is, of course, all meant in good humour, but I can see now that depending on the circumstances / partner / attitude, it might become irritating. In any event, if the men pull a face every time they do that move, then it certainly removes the fun / surprise element.

As for how many moves can be started that way! Quite a few, but I cannot think of 18. A dozen maybe. I'll try and teach one or two in the next few weeks...

Franck.

[Janet]

WOW! I never expected my use of the word 'surprise' to spark such controversy!

As I explained (or thought I had) in the previous thread, a surprise for me doesn't have to be extravagant or complicated. Simple variations can be just as effective. It is more about keeping things interesting and not being predictable all the time.

Originally posted by Franck
Well, I make it my mission to catch my partner out as much as possible (just to check who is really leading ).

I have to say that I enjoy the challenge of this - of following lots of interesting and varied moves without being 'caught out'. So what if I don't get it 'right' all the time - that is what practice is all about - and if I don't manage to follow my partner's intended move then it just makes things more interesting for him, trying to follow on from where I end up.
I never feel embarassed/bad about not being able to follow a move 'properly'.

Originally posted by Franck
...a lot of women who have only danced a few months / years, might not have been exposed to so many variations and as a result, anticipate moves, thereby limiting the man's ability to lead a different outcome.

I have to admit that I am firmly in this category, so the more variations/surprises I get the better. I am never going to improve by just dancing the same old moves over and over.

I also have to admit that Franck's "just to check who is really leading " was aimed firmly, if not exclusively, at me. :sorry

Originally posted by Jiveoholic
If you mean the "false pretzel start" then I think it is a shame that move bugs you.

I quite like the false pretzel. When I first started I used to think that I was simply too slow to catch my partner's hand. It took me a while to realise that it was a 'real' move! But I do agree that it can wear thin after a while.

Originally posted by Jiveoholic
Lets lighten up now and be more forgiving - it is supposed to be fun - otherwise I would do ballroom

I agree, though I'm not saying with what bit!

Janet

p.s. I find that a quick squirt of WD-40 works wonders...
So does changing the spark plugs...

[Franck]

Originally posted by Janet
WOW! I never expected my use of the word 'surprise' to spark such controversy!

Well, it goes to show then...
Saying that, I am really pleased of the way the Forum is going. A mix of fun and serious discussions in a civilized context... Well done to all of you who contribute regularly for making it such an entertaining and informative place to hang out.

Originally posted by Janet
As I explained (or thought I had) in the previous thread, a surprise for me doesn't have to be extravagant or complicated. Simple variations can be just as effective. It is more about keeping things interesting and not being predictable all the time.

Indeed that is what you were saying, but it is interesting to see how men and women view the same dance / and how different their perceptions are... I would be interested to hear from more men and women on this subject, so don't be shy if you have not posted already, give it a go.

Originally posted by Janet
I have to admit that.../snip/

I also have to admit that .../snip/

Now now Janet, you should be more careful what you admit to! Anything you say might ( and probably will ) be held in evidence against you...
If you want an example of that, just try and count how many "Almost pretzel pulling a face" Jayne will be submitted to tonight in Glasgow!

Franck.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Franck

If you want an example of that, just try and count how many "Almost pretzel pulling a face" Jayne will be submitted to tonight in Glasgow!

Franck.

Probably about as many as the number of times I was asked "what animal are you?" when I wore an Animal t-shirt...

Jayne

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jayne


Probably about as many as the number of times I was asked "what animal are you?" when I wore an Animal t-shirt...

Jayne

Wooh, touchy touchy

Was it a hedgehog? :p

Franck.

[DavidB]

I have to admit that the false pretzel is one of my least favourite moves. The lady almost always looks annoyed when the man does it. And if you have ever seen a couple taking the mickey out of bad Ceroc, this is the first move they do. (The next is the teapot.) Fortunately as a leader, I don't have to do it if I don't want to.

Originally posted by jiveoholic The man's right hand behind his back is place there to get you to turn clockwise into his LHS and under his arm. Without it you would not know what he wanted. His removal of the hand then tells you that it was not a real pretzel but this technique of getting you to go under his arm.

Have you ever tried leading a false pretzel without using the right hand at all? I tried on Friday, and it worked without a problem. (Tip: You have to stop the natural clockwise rotation of the dance around each other first - otherwise the lady will want to go past your right shoulder no matter what you lead.)

There are then so many possibilities after this point (I have 18 noted down but can remember about 3!) that you can have all the surprises you wish!

I think I need to check your database. I never do a false pretzel normally, so when I managed to lead it one handed, I didn't know what to do! Fortunately my partner covered for me.

David