Thank you ladies

[robd]

Have been meaning to post this for a little while but it struck me recently whilst sitting out a couple of tracks at a standard Ceroc night just how much pushing, pulling, yanking, throwing, shoving and general (wo)man-handling was going on from the men to the ladies. The location doesn't matter since I've seen similar stuff elsewhere though perhaps not as concentrated as that one occasion.

I could dress it up as leaders and followers but the men who are brave enough to dance with other men tend not to be following the sort of leaders I have in mind here. There's not much purpose to this post other than to thank those ladies who must love dancing so much that they put up with this on a regular basis and still keep coming back. I am not sure whether, if that was my introduction to dancing as a follower, I'd have been back for the 2nd week.

Robert

[onkar]

Rob

Couldn't agree more. I think there should be a physio on hand to treat the rough handling I have seen dished out at some venues. Perhaps Ceroc could make that a chargable extra. After dance massages went down a storm at Storm.

I have also attempted for fun to dance with guys (as the follower), and I felt rather abused by the experience.

So I will also add my thanks ladies for putting up with such abuse.


Onkar

[LMC]

Originally Posted by robd

... thank those ladies who must love dancing so much that they put up with this on a regular basis and still keep coming back.

Originally Posted by onkar

...my thanks ladies for putting up with such abuse.

Did these make anyone else think "how patronising"?. Followers don't have to "put up". And neither should leaders if it comes to that, although it seems to be less of a problem for them.

Instead of gratitude, how about some encouragement to followers not to accept "rough handling". All it takes is to ask someone to be more gentle.

[Twirly]

Originally Posted by LMC

Did these make anyone else think "how patronising"?. Followers don't have to "put up". And neither should leaders if it comes to that, although it seems to be less of a problem for them.

Instead of gratitude, how about some encouragement to followers not to accept "rough handling". All it takes is to ask someone to be more gentle.

I didn't find it patronising - and I don't think it was intended to be - though I can see why you might have thought so. It sounds like an encouragement to the guys to stop doing it - an increase in awareness.

Agree with you that followers should ask for more gentle handling - though I don't find it easy to do so. If it's in class, they've moved on before I get to say anything, and if it's in freestyle short of going "ouch" in the middle of the dance to let them know a particular thing hasn't been good for me, they've often disappeared at the end of the dance before I get to say something. And I don't like to criticise/complain.

But like most things it take practise - I did manage to point out the other week to someone that he'd just squashed my hand and asked him to be more gentle (I had felt the bones crunch and had actually gone "ow!" and winced, though he didn't even notice!). If it wasn't for the comments on here though I doubt I'd have done it - so thanks for the encouragement. Sometimes wish I wasn't so well-brought up and polite!

[Chef]

Originally Posted by LMC

Did these make anyone else think "how patronising"?. Followers don't have to "put up". And neither should leaders if it comes to that, although it seems to be less of a problem for them.

Instead of gratitude, how about some encouragement to followers not to accept "rough handling". All it takes is to ask someone to be more gentle.

I can see how this may sound patronising, but feel sure that it would not be intended to be so.

It sounded to me like some dancers had had a moment where they realised that in the process of learning that they had not been all that smooth and enjoyable to dance with and that they owed a retrospective apology and thanks to those that had to endure their early efforts.

Almost all people (leaders and follwers) on the dance scene are hugely tolerant of the mistakes of beginners who are interested in learning.

Conversely there is seems to be little tolerance of people who can no longer claim to be beginners and yet show no interest in the quality of dance they are giving to their partner. There have been numerous threads on this forum on "yankers, crankers, smelly people.......long list" about people that have all the information available to allow them to stop these behaviours but are oblivious to it either through inablity to percieve it or negligent disregard.

When we are learning then we make mistakes and our partners sometimes suffer as a result. Yet without these people that dance with us and help our progression the dance scene would be less vibrant than it is now.

A moment to pause and remember all those people that have helped each of us progress in our dancing seems in order to me. It is also a moment for me to renew my resolve that I will do the same as them to those people that are just starting their own dance journey.

[LMC]

There wasn't any encouragement to followers to try to change things in either of those posts, although you're right, there is plenty elsewhere on the forum.

As for

...short of going "ouch" in the middle of the dance to let them know a particular thing hasn't been good for me.

I find that the easy bit! - and I do it in lessons too and am REALLY pathetic about it. Shoulder yank? - "OW". Hand grip? - "ooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww". Hair caught in watch? "OW!". Then they mostly ask what's wrong which makes it easy to say "Sorry, but ...". I've even done this with a first-timer who turned before I'd finished my turn on a shoulder drop during the beginner's lesson and hurt my shoulder. People may not know unless we tell them.

EDIT due to simulpost: to Chef - and thank you to all the people who have helped me along the short way I've come so far

[Twirly]

Actually, there is one point where I go OW! very loudly - when I get bashed over the head, which happens frequently, particularly where I've had my hair up in this heat (normally don't bother because of this, but it was intolerable and I get what I've heard somewhere on here called "leaky head syndrome"!). The guys usually apologise profusely.

LMC, I think you're right. And I'm trying to get into the habit of doing this. Must remember to check and make sure that I'm not yanking/pulling etc...

[LMC]

Originally Posted by Twirly

Must remember to check and make sure that I'm not yanking/pulling etc...

Yeah, me too (Apologies to anyone on Saturday if I was too strong, looking back on an evening I really enjoyed I don't think *I* was dancing at my best)

[robd]

My original post wasn't intended to be patronising nor to offer any advice. It was a simple observation that if I had been subject to that kind of handling on a regular basis (and particularly as a beginner) it's unlikely I'd still be dancing. I'm thankful for the ladies who have, by whatever method and incentive, found a way past this concern. I do also wonder quite how many (and I personally know a few) have fallen by the wayside because of it.

Robert

[Cruella]

Originally Posted by robd

if I had been subject to that kind of handling on a regular basis

[MartinHarper]

Originally Posted by robd

The men who are brave enough to dance with other men tend not to be following the sort of leaders I have in mind here.

Yeah, they tend not to ask me to dance, sadly.

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

Originally Posted by Cruella

teeheehee

[Serendipity]

The day after a dance night I can guarantee the following 'injuries'

1. Finger hold bruising around the top of my left arm (I think from some kind of flick spin).

2. Watch scratches down my right arm and across my left arm.

3. Tender spots across my head where I have been knocked from various angles depending on the height of the guys I've danced with.

4. Less long dark hair than I started with.


However, I'll also have had so much fun that the next time I pull on my dance shoes the healing will have happened and I'll willingly skip off for more abuse.......

Does this count as masochism?

[tiger]

LMC,

Chill out please. RobD didnt seem patronising. It seemed like an awareness call to me.
There are lots of things that the men could mention:
long hair hitting them in the face due to being not tied up enough,
long nails,
gripping on to the mans hand too hard when he's a soft lead, etc.

its quite difficult for both the ladies+the men as ceroc seems to be a 'no refusal' dance situation and sometimes a dance can be unenjoyable;

but its only one dance.

[Your wife]

I just wanted to raise the point that the more pulled, janked and shoved I am by a man the tireder I get and the less dancing I can do! If I'm dancing continously with gentle leads I can dance the whole night without a break to get my breath back.

A good lead need only offer clear signals to get woman into the right move, and men should trust women to use the rhythm of the music to keep up speed rather being tugged in time.

I've danced with some rough leads, who, when they see your getting tired start putting you into faster, more complicated moves that you are obviously going to f**k up. This serves no purpose except to make themselves look much flasher than the person their dancing with (in which case they're not dancing with them but against them). Sometimes I honestly wonder if these blokes are trying to kill me, in which case, can they please go back to lurking in dark alleys where they belong.

[straycat]

Originally Posted by Your wife

I just wanted to raise the point that the more pulled, janked and shoved I am by a man the tireder I get and the less dancing I can do! If I'm dancing continously with gentle leads I can dance the whole night without a break to get my breath back.

Yeesh - where on earth do you go dancing? The local WWF Wrestling Club?

Have you thought about a change in venue?

[Trish]

Originally Posted by robd

Have been meaning to post this for a little while but it struck me recently whilst sitting out a couple of tracks at a standard Ceroc night just how much pushing, pulling, yanking, throwing, shoving and general (wo)man-handling was going on from the men to the ladies. The location doesn't matter since I've seen similar stuff elsewhere though perhaps not as concentrated as that one occasion.

I could dress it up as leaders and followers but the men who are brave enough to dance with other men tend not to be following the sort of leaders I have in mind here. There's not much purpose to this post other than to thank those ladies who must love dancing so much that they put up with this on a regular basis and still keep coming back. I am not sure whether, if that was my introduction to dancing as a follower, I'd have been back for the 2nd week.

Robert

Thanks Rob, it's nice to be appreciated! And I don't actually ever remember you being a yanker or a rough lead! I must admit to being in the not putting up with it camp, and would say something to people even when I was taxiing and they'd only been a few weeks. You don't have to be unkind, just say "please try to do this not that, as that hurts!" I'm afraid I've turned chicken since being pregnant though and am only dancing with people I know are gentle (unless I have a very strong recommendation from someone I highly trust). Don't like the idea of being yanked when my ligaments have stretched at all so I'm staying off beginners!!! I'll probably go back to taxiing if I have the time after the baby's born, or certainly to trying to help those that are in their early dance stages and need some encouragement and help.