MJ critique class: would you?

[Phil_dB]

I kind of like the idea of posting up a video to get feedback. I do take Emmy's point though that if the Critiquer's style is poles apart from mine (IE not want I'd want from my own dance) then I'd be less inclined to take any notice. Having said that - just because the styles might be a lot different doesn't mean that someone couldn't offer useful advice...

Perhaps the video idea would work if you could post feedback only if you have already posted your own video clip. That way anyone reading feedback about themselves could, if they wanted to, view the critiquer dancing and make up their own mind what to think of the feedback..?

The principal of the idea is good, however in reality, you'd probably recieve little or no feedback whatsoever (as hardly anyone will post). Plus as well, - just because someone is a good dancer, - does it automatically mean they're a good teacher? I'd say no.

Plus as well by limiting the response you cut yourself off from the "wisdom of crowds" which internet forums are good for.

I completley agree with Gus, - dance crique is a very personal thing. And often the best critique can be the hardest to stomach (truth hurts & all that).

I also think that identifying problems is one hurdle; offering a solution is another.... But offering a solution that will actually work for you, - is yet something else again.

I do think it would be beneficial to post a video here (after you've got over the dent in your ego ), however, probably a "safer" way forward if you're really serious about making progress, would be private tuition (which included video analysis) from a respected teacher. A good pro should be able to immediately idenfity underlying issues, and know exactly the best way forward to solving them (because he's taught hundreds of other pupils before & know what works well and what doesn't work as well). Aside from problems, - a good teacher should also be able to offer you a clear direction in terms of the way forward (long term) and short cut your learning curve.

[Andy McGregor]

I also think that identifying problems is one hurdle; offering a solution is another.... But offering a solution that will actually work for you, - is yet something else again.

I do think it would be beneficial to post a video here (after you've got over the dent in your ego ), however, probably a "safer" way forward if you're really serious about making progress, would be private tuition (which included video analysis) from a respected teacher. A good pro should be able to immediately idenfity underlying issues, and know exactly the best way forward to solving them (because he's taught hundreds of other pupils before & know what works well and what doesn't work as well). Aside from problems, - a good teacher should also be able to offer you a clear direction in terms of the way forward (long term) and short cut your learning curve.

I give quite a few private lessons. Except for those learning a dance for a wedding it's mostly about correcting bad habits and replacing them with new, good, habits. Private lessons are an expensive way to learn new moves that you could get at any class or workshop. But they are a fabulous way of getting personal and private feedback on improving your technique.

I believe that a video critique by the masses would be worse than useless. The masses as a group don't know what they're talking about. If you need evidence of that you need look no further than John & Edward in The X Factor or the likes of Christopher Parker in Strictly.

[todd]

The principal of the idea is good, however in reality, you'd probably recieve little or no feedback whatsoever (as hardly anyone will post). Plus as well, - just because someone is a good dancer, - does it automatically mean they're a good teacher? I'd say no.

Plus as well by limiting the response you cut yourself off from the "wisdom of crowds" which internet forums are good for.

I completley agree with Gus, - dance crique is a very personal thing. And often the best critique can be the hardest to stomach (truth hurts & all that).

I also think that identifying problems is one hurdle; offering a solution is another.... But offering a solution that will actually work for you, - is yet something else again.

I do think it would be beneficial to post a video here (after you've got over the dent in your ego ), however, probably a "safer" way forward if you're really serious about making progress, would be private tuition (which included video analysis) from a respected teacher. A good pro should be able to immediately idenfity underlying issues, and know exactly the best way forward to solving them (because he's taught hundreds of other pupils before & know what works well and what doesn't work as well). Aside from problems, - a good teacher should also be able to offer you a clear direction in terms of the way forward (long term) and short cut your learning curve.

Yeap, have to agree with your on you points. Good dancer = good teachers? Not always. And the idea causing limited feedback - yeah, I see what you mean.

As for private tuition with video - that sounds like the "Video Clinic" that is often run at Ceroc weekenders. I've done that a couple of times myself and found them really beneficial.

[Phil_dB]

May I ask, - which teacher/s did the video clinic with you at the weekenders, out of interest?

I know that some teachers outside of weekenders also offer this service.

[todd]

May I ask, - which teacher/s did the video clinic with you at the weekenders, out of interest?

I know that some teachers outside of weekenders also offer this service.

Hi Phil - It was Richard and Jo from Ceroc Fever and both times I did it at the Breeze weekender in Brean Sands. I believe they also run the same service at other weekenders (EG Camber), but don't quote me on that. I'm not sure if they do it outside of weekenders - best ask them directly!

[Gus]

Perhaps the video idea would work if you could post feedback only if you have already posted your own video clip. That way anyone reading feedback about themselves could, if they wanted to, view the critiquer dancing and make up their own mind what to think of the feedback..?

OK ... nothing to lose. Video is . Knock yourselves out. All critique gratefully received. Please note that I'm only asking for comments on my dancing, not that of my partner. Despite the billing, it was just a tired Gus freestyling before teaching a second lesson.

[Andy McGregor]

OK ... nothing to lose. Video is . Knock yourselves out. All critique gratefully received. Please note that I'm only asking for comments on my dancing, not that of my partner. Despite the billing, it was just a tired Gus freestyling before teaching a second lesson.

Nice venue

[Alan Doyle]

OK ... nothing to lose. Video is . Knock yourselves out. All critique gratefully received. Please note that I'm only asking for comments on my dancing, not that of my partner. Despite the billing, it was just a tired Gus freestyling before teaching a second lesson.

Hi Gus,

I suppose to give you some background...my teacher training is with the GSDTA & LeRoc. My judges training is with GSDTA & WSDC.

I'm teaching a workshop focusing on Upper Level (Advanced) Basics in Modern Jive focusing on Timing, Technique & Teamwork...I'm teaching advanced technique using basic patterns and anyone who wants a critique, I will give them one at the jive weekend in Munich in 2 weeks...

Please view this as constructive feedback (I think there are a lot of things you are doing well, but some things need some work)...if you'd like me to clarify anything let me know...I've broken it down into Timing, Technique & Teamwork. If you like I can make some suggestions as to what you can do to improve your Timing, Technique & Teamwork...

· One of the major things I'd like to see is you body leading the dance as opposed to arm leading it (most people arm lead MJ).
· I'd also like to see you do a rock step on beats 1&2 of every pattern.

All in all well done, good job

Timing – You must be on the beat of the music

· On the Down Beat

This was pretty good, most of the time you were dancing on the down beat.

· Pulsing

You weren’t pulsing – you should pulse the downbeat in MJ.

· Aware of the Breaks

You were aware of a lot of the breaks

· Degree of Critical Timing

You were mostly on time, but slightly behind the beat

Technique – I'm looking to see how the body looks in motion.

· Individual Centring

You’re dancing with your feet but not with your centre. When leading the pattern, your centre moves first before the beat (&a) and then lands on the down beat.

· Body Alignment

I didn’t see many awkward moves that came from poor body alignment or lack of balance from improper foot placement but I did see that you were not getting your balance on the foot that you spin on before you steping back on your other foot after you turn. A lot of this is down to posture. There are 3 parts to correctly executing a turn (1) the start, (2) the turn and (3) the stop & Spotting

· Foot Placement

A lot of the time you were dancing on a single track which is good. A lot of the time you were using correct foot positions.

· Hand Placement

Hand Placement was pretty good.

· Leverage / Compression

I didn’t see you giving compression and then leverage before leading a move (but most of the patterns were arm lead – which I'd like to see body lead).

Teamwork – Partners must work together. One partner should not be obviously out dancing the other. There should be a comfortable, equal "resistance" between the two dancers that shows an action/reaction while at the same time creating a balanced flow.

· Couple Centring

There is a flashlight between your centres; she should always try to keep her centre facing your centre, which she did pretty well. You should lead with your centre.

· Action / Reaction

I felt she wasn’t actively following you, she should match the resistance – meet a push with a push and a pull with a pull.

· Connection

I did notice that you were dancing a lot with your finger tips; you get a better connection if you try to connect with the inside of your middle finger.

· Compatibility

You are quite compatible with each other

· Harmonious Adjustment

You both seem to have pretty good co-ordination

[Gadget]

OK ... nothing to lose. Video is . Knock yourselves out. All critique gratefully received. Please note that I'm only asking for comments on my dancing, not that of my partner. Despite the billing, it was just a tired Gus freestyling before teaching a second lesson.

My thoughts:

I could tell you were tired; very little in the way of extensions or crisp/sharp contrasts and your floor craft wasn't as tidy as it could be.

You know you're a good dancer and you've been teaching it for years, so there isn't really anything obvious or major to pick up on that would make more than a tiny bit of difference.

But if I'm specifically looking for things to critique...

• I think that the orientation of your feet could be looked at: you dance with a slight bend (and bounce) in your knees - gives you a bow legged look and makes your toes point out all the time. It also means that most steps taken are onto an angled foot. The bent knees can be a good thing - lets you move smoothly and turn easily, a wide stance means you are more stable and have more options in terms of where you can move from here. This is probably a remnant of your martial arts training; your 'at rest' stance is like GG's - not that pretty.
  
  
• When you're not specifically looking at your partner, you tend to bob your head and look down. Would probably look better if you look to where your partner will be and let them move into your field of vision or specifically look away (with head up) to give contrast. (Trampy does the look down thing too, so do I... )
  
  
• In general, you are leading MJ as classic MJ: you are leading and your partner is following. There is very little syncopation, mirroring, or moving as one with your partner unless it's where you bring them into an close embrace where it's still obvious that you're the lead and your partner is the follower.
  Your length of stride and foot falls seldom match your partners: I've seen you look more 'in tune' with other partners, I know you can do it, but there is little evidence of it from this clip - It shows very much the roles of a dominant lead and submissive follower.
  
  
• It was danced well, and on beat. However the moves were just moves after moves, exploring a little bit of musicality in selection, but not much in execution. You seemed to be dancing to the beat all the time rather than the lyrics, melody or structure. To me it made it just look like a typical MJ dance rather than a spotlight: I would have liked to have seen some changes in tempo that matched the music or a repeat pattern to match a chorus or some styling to coincide with the strings... even when you're 'static' in a pose/stance or the follower is orbiting you, you keep the 'marching' beat and movement going.
  
  
• The not-so-subtle ass grab and leaving the hand on the follower's butt when pulling in for a close 'blues' embrace isn't something I would like to promote in social MJ dancing. Nor would I the collapsed blues frame be something I would show in a showcase/spotlight for normal social MJ. (Dancing socially or blues, then OK; but in this particular clip I thought it was out of place)
  
  
• I don't know that a bounce on a dip is that good a move; I would have rather seen a staged controlled descent/ascent or an impressive exit.

Reading a bit, this clip is kind of a promo for the moves that will be taught in a workshop, so perhaps there are boundaries on what you wanted to show and specifically didn't want to show and how much of a 'performance' you wanted it to look.

As I said, not much to criticise; and from a video, all that can really be advised on is the look and perhaps connection with the music.

[Gadget]

Hi Gus,

I suppose to give you some background...my teacher training is with the GSDTA & LeRoc. My judges training is with GSDTA & WSDC.

I have no problem with the critique; just the language used: Lots of "Should" and convictions about what is right and what is wrong.

Opinions and views(*) presented as statements of fact are likely to lead to a debate that has little to do with the intent of Gus's post.

(* about how MJ "should" be danced)

[Andy McGregor]

· One of the major things I'd like to see is you body leading the dance as opposed to arm leading it (most people arm lead MJ).
·

Most beginners arm lead. Most experienced Modern Jivers smoothly combine arm and body leads. Modern Jive is what Modern Jive does. It's a folk dance and should be taught the way folk do it. This prepares them for the social situation where Modern Jive is danced. As it's a social dance and we should be teaching people how to dance sociably.

I'm not saying MJ should be danced using bad dance technique if that's what everyone is doing. What I'm saying is that, as teachers, we should look at the best Modern Jivers and help our students to dance like the best.

I'd also like to see you do a rock step on beats 1&2 of every pattern.

This would be very repetitive, to say the least! Having said that, it depends on what you call a "pattern".

[/FONT]On the Down Beat

Down beat We're dancers, not members of an orchestra waiting for the conductor to drop his baton. And there is confusion about the down beat being beat 1 of a 4 beat bar. For us dancers, especially Modern Jivers we usually use beat 1 of the minor phrase of 2 bars - we dance in eight counts which would include 2 "down beats". Why not number the beats? It's so much more simple.

In the main, whilst I could understand Alan's critique, my impression was that he wasn't so much providing Gus with a critique as displaying his own knowledge of dance. This reminds me of the middle class ladies, think Mrs Bucket, who use long words in an attempt to impress. Yes Alan, we're impressed with your knowledge of dance.

My own critique of Gus is quite simple. Here is it;

Stop nodding and looking at the floor.

That's it. And the reason I'm only picking on one thing is that I'm an experienced dance teacher and know that a single change in a person's dancing changes so much more about their dancing - I'd watch carefully once the nodding had stopped and hope that the single change helped Gus improve his posture so that he was more upright with his bottom tucked under - lovely though it is If the posture didn't change once the nodding had stopped I'd address that next.

We were asked to provide a critique for coaching purposes and that's what I've done. If I were judging Gus I'd have a slightly longer list, but the thing that most needs changing is the nodding - and it's a simple change that you can make in an instant, which shows immediate progress, which is nice.

I think Gus is very brave in posting this video and he should be admired for this. His dancing is very good, especially for a teacher as he doesn't over-decorate which means his students can copy his moves more easily.

Well done Gus

[straycat]

Might I suggest... that those offering critiques put videos of themselves up? (I know that Gadget has, on the YouTube vids thread iirc)

It's always useful to see where someone's coming from. Example - if I were to post any comments on Gus' video, I would (mostly) be doing so from a Lindy / Blues perspective - and I'm not sure my feedback would be sufficiently relevant to MJ.

Although I think Gus needs a longer t-shirt

Hmmm. Actually - I will say that it would be improved by better posture. I say this knowing fine well that my own posture is probably worse

Oh - and kudos for posting the clip.

[David Franklin]

OK ... nothing to lose. Video is . Knock yourselves out. All critique gratefully received. Please note that I'm only asking for comments on my dancing, not that of my partner. Despite the billing, it was just a tired Gus freestyling before teaching a second lesson.

I think my biggest criticism of your dancing here is that it looks tired and a little bit sloppy rather than sharp. But I'd also say that normally your energy when you dance is one of your stronger points, so I'm inclined to think that "yeah, you were just tired".

As Andy says, you looked down too much. [And if ever the pot was calling the kettle black, it was me when I wrote that sentence].

In terms of musicality - I didn't see a great deal to be honest. It felt like it was just a string of moves that were on beat but not much else. To be fair, I think your biggest musical problem was using that track for a demo - it's the kind of track where I'd keep the moves very simple 90% of the time. To me it's also quite a 'sharp' track, and I would have preferred sharper movements to go with it. (In particular, there are typically strong beats on 1 and 7 of each {musical} 8-count, and I'd have liked to have seen more of your dancing acknowledge that).

Musically, the bit I liked best was a little section from about 2:05 to 2:13 where it felt that you were sharp, a little bit more on top of the beat, and also acknowledged the syncopation in the rhythm.

I'd disagree with Gadget about the drop - I thought it looked fine; although being honest, this is the often kind of thing that you do more because you and your partner like it than because it looks amazing to onlookers.

Again - lots of respect for posting the clip.

[Gadget]

Might I suggest... that those offering critiques put videos of themselves up? (I know that Gadget has, on the YouTube vids thread iirc)

I was going to get someone to record a couple of dances and post one of them; Gus beat me to it. What's on that thread is a busk - not really a 'standard' dance.

[Gus]

Might I suggest... that those offering critiques put videos of themselves up? (I know that Gadget has, on the YouTube vids thread iirc)

I can see what you are saying but I think that it need not be a criteria for offering advice. To be honest there has been much of benefit in all the postings (including the PM'd ones)

Although I think Gus needs a longer t-shirt

I think that Gus needs a shorter stomach

[Dave Hancock]

Firstly well done on posting this Gus, you are very brave in doing so.

Firstly I actually really enjoyed the video and thought there were an awful lot of nice things within it, I found the little bum grab playful and cheeky and it seems like the lady did as well! I thought there was a good selection of moves, that it looked pretty smooth and that the two of you were really enjoying it.

I'd agree with a lot of what Andy Mcgregor wrote, not sure that I was all that taken by Alan's or Gadget's review and totally agree with Andy on the best point in a critique is to get one single thing to focus on. To this effect I'd go with the posturing thing, I'd definitely focus on getting the shoulders a bit further back, to me this would solve quite a number of the other things mentioned, would naturally raise the head position and make the dance look even slicker.

However once again I'd like to thank you for posting this and being brave in inviting comments thereon.

[robd]

All critique gratefully received.

I've seen better MJ on YT and I have seen a lot worse. I'd echo what others have said about the overall dancing not matching the mood of the song particularly but very few MJ dancers IMO are capable of doing this anyway. Would also echo the 'looking down' comments. On the plus side there are some nice patterns in there and a couple of places where you accented the music well (0:32 and 2:13) which I enjoyed. Kudos for having the guts to put a clip up in the first place.

[robd]

In the main, whilst I could understand Alan's critique, my impression was that he wasn't so much providing Gus with a critique as displaying his own knowledge of dance.

So that's the distinction between knowledge and understanding?

[Double Trouble]

I think there is a difference between watching someone dance and actually danding with them. Looking at Gus in that video clip doesn't do him much justice, IMO. I danced with him at a weekender a while back and it was (by far) the best dance of the weekend.

He ticks all the boxes for me.

[David Franklin]

In the main, whilst I could understand Alan's critique, my impression was that he wasn't so much providing Gus with a critique as displaying his own knowledge of dance.

To be honest, I think Alan's largely reading off a set script written by someone else. Which is not necessarily bad - I would expect someone judging a MJ competition to be referring closely to a set of rules written by someone else as well.

There's a problem when the script was originally written for WCS dancers and not translated into MJ terms. (That's even before you get into Skippy Blair's writing style - I find she spends a page describing something and at the end I feel absolutely none the wiser. From discussions with others, including experienced WCS dancers, I'm far from the only person).

Down beat We're dancers, not members of an orchestra waiting for the conductor to drop his baton. And there is confusion about the down beat being beat 1 of a 4 beat bar.

To be fair, however, I can't blame this one on Skippy. I thought it was pretty universally understood amongst swing-based dancers that the downbeats are the odd counts and the upbeats are the even counts (music counts not Ceroc counts).

the thing that most needs changing is the nodding - and it's a simple change that you can make in an instant, which shows immediate progress, which is nice.

I have to say, I think it depends on the person how easy they find this. I certainly don't find this kind of thing easy to change.