MJ critique class: would you?

[Gus]

I found the little bum grab playful and cheeky and it seems like the lady did as well!

Didn't even remember doing that! Though we were dancing in front of a lot of people, its a lovely friendly club (Hessle Jive) and we just were dancing for each other and forgetting people were watching

Re the DavidBs earlier proposal ... I think I'm going to try the idea out at Hessle. If we can cover the costs of the hall, I think we could get a fair few couples from the club to participate and then use a consolidation of the points emerging to develop a suite of workshops that are tuned to what people need.

[Gus]

To be honest, I think Alan's largely reading off a set script written by someone else. Which is not necessarily bad - I would expect someone judging a MJ competition to be referring closely to a set of rules written by someone else as well.

Hmm .. my thougths were that such scripts are a really usefull framework for analysis. If anyone can point me in the direction of the source of this script or similar, be it MJ, WCS or Swing, I'd be most grateful.

[robd]

I think there is a difference between watching someone dance and actually danding with them. Looking at Gus in that video clip doesn't do him much justice, IMO. I danced with him at a weekender a while back and it was (by far) the best dance of the weekend.

He ticks all the boxes for me.

And the point of posting this is?

Gus had already implied in his invitation that it doesn't do him justice ("it was just a tired Gus freestyling") and since the only possible evaluation that can be done of a video clip is how a person looks when dancing rather than how they feel I can only presume that he is happy with people critiquing him on that basis.

[David Franklin]

Hmm .. my thougths were that such scripts are a really usefull framework for analysis. If anyone can point me in the direction of the source of this script or similar, be it MJ, WCS or Swing, I'd be most grateful.

I can point you in the direction, but not to a specific script: http://www.swingworld.com/

I don't even know if there is a literal script, but my guess is you get a fair amount of written material in the intensives Skippy teaches, and my impression is that Alan quotes from that material extensively.

[Alan Doyle]

I can point you in the direction, but not to a specific script: http://www.swingworld.com/

I don't even know if there is a literal script, but my guess is you get a fair amount of written material in the intensives Skippy teaches, and my impression is that Alan quotes from that material extensively.

You do get some written material (in the form of articles, you can see some on Skippy's Website), but I generally take a lot of notes and I use Skippy's terminology.

[bigdjiver]

OK ... nothing to lose. Video is . Knock yourselves out. All critique gratefully received. Please note that I'm only asking for comments on my dancing, not that of my partner. Despite the billing, it was just a tired Gus freestyling before teaching a second lesson.

I was very happy to spread that link around the world as an example of Modern Jive. Probably 99% of the population that like dancing wish they could dance as well as that.

[Gus]

Gus had already implied in his invitation that it doesn't do him justice ("it was just a tired Gus freestyling").

I'm not sure that it doesn't do me justice. My dancing, especially as a visual experince has fallen back massively from the heady days of being part of the Jango Hotshots () and being coached by the likes of Dave & Lily and Kate & Manchester-Supporter-type-bloke. It is what it is. I'm not fretting too much about it. I'm a teacher first and foremost, not a dancer ... though I do feel under pressure sometimes to be a better dnacer to justify the Teacher tag

However, I apprecaite, like other dnacers I know that (apprently) I'm better to dance with than it looks from the outside .... I think thats the point that the lovely Double Bubble was making.

[Andy McGregor]

To be fair, however, I can't blame this one on Skippy. I thought it was pretty universally understood amongst swing-based dancers that the downbeats are the odd counts and the upbeats are the even counts (music counts not Ceroc counts).

Not being a musician I didn't know what a "downbeat" was. Some time ago I asked a musician and he explained that it's called a "downbeat" because it's when the conductor sweeps his baton down at the beginning of a bar. My tame musician also said that it could be argued that the "real downbeat" was only on the one of the first bar: this is when the conductor's hands hover really high and sweep down on the one in a fairly dramatic way. The other thing he said was that, technically, there is no such thing as an "upbeat".

My conclusion is that music is such an intrinsic part of dance we should really be talking the same language as musicians when we talk about music. For a musician the downbeat is beat one of a bar, not the odd numbered beats. Luckily musicians talk about beat numbers too. Therefore it's much easier for us to talk about the number of the beat when talking about dance. Why complicate it with down, up or any other word? Especially when you could end up sounding like the mad hatter "raise your arm on the down beat" or "lower your heel on the up beat"

And this whole "dancing count" thing is even worse - especially when it's called the "Ceroc Count". Each "dancing count" is two beats and usually requires a different action on each one of those beats.

[Dave Hancock]

You do get some written material (in the form of articles, you can see some on Skippy's Website), but I generally take a lot of notes and I use Skippy's terminology.

I guess I had a lot of similar thoughts to David Franklin and given you've presumably been to an intensive I found it all the more amazing that you wrote such a long critique.

Also judging a MJ by what Skippy believes to be the best approach to dancing WCS seemed a little unusual.

[Dave Hancock]

Not being a musician I didn't know what a "downbeat" was. Some time ago I asked a musician and he explained that it's called a "downbeat" because it's when the conductor sweeps his baton down at the beginning of a bar. My tame musician also said that it could be argued that the "real downbeat" was only on the one of the first bar: this is when the conductor's hands hover really high and sweep down on the one in a fairly dramatic way. The other thing he said was that, technically, there is no such thing as an "upbeat".

A lot of other dances and teachers also use the downbeat/upbeat phrasing, I know that from time to time my Latin & ballroom coach does.

Skippy works in 2 beat increments where the first beat is downbeat as you describe with the conductor and second beat being upbeat. If you're able to break all your patterns into 2 beat increments it'll give you an awful lot of scope for increased learning and also for syncopations, again this a technique often used in the Latin world.

Thus for downbeat you could think 1,3,5,7 and upbeats 2,4,6,8.

Am not sure where I stand on the should MJ have a pulse debate, we had a little debate up here a few years ago after we first met Skippy but not sure if we came to a real conclusion.

[David Franklin]

Not being a musician I didn't know what a "downbeat" was.

Seriously? (Assuming you mean you've only learnt during this thread. Obviously at one point none of us knew what a downbeat is). I find that very surprising (this is not a value judgement). I guess I've read a lot of internet discussions, so I kind of assumed it was common vocabulary amongst dancers who 'study around'.

My conclusion is that music is such an intrinsic part of dance we should really be talking the same language as musicians when we talk about music.

Unless you're prepared to start calling half-beats eighths, this is perhaps a road best travelled selectively.

For a musician the downbeat is beat one of a bar, not the odd numbered beats. Luckily musicians talk about beat numbers too. Therefore it's much easier for us to talk about the number of the beat when talking about dance. Why complicate it with down, up or any other word?

If the dance world could start again, I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you. However, given pretty much every other swing dance uses upbeat and downbeat, you're not really aiding cross-communication if you use different terminology.

And this whole "dancing count" thing is even worse - especially when it's called the "Ceroc Count".

The thing is, outside of MJ, pretty much no-one uses it. And quite a few MJ teachers don't use it either these days. Which is why it feels fairly reasonable to call it the "Ceroc Count". I agree it's a bad thing - I think it's one of the main reasons MJ dancers tend to look worse than WCS ones.

[Andy McGregor]

Seriously? (Assuming you mean you've only learnt during this thread.

I spoke with that musician years ago. I've been reminded of this nonsense by the talk on this thread. I don't talk down/up and neither do Ceroc or any other MJ teacher I've ever heard. They might talk about it in other swing dances, but not MJ.

And my ballroom teachers never talked about down, up or any other beat. They talked about ones and twos.

[Andy McGregor]

Unless you're prepared to start calling half-beats eighths, this is perhaps a road best travelled selectively.

I'm saying that we should call beats "beats". This means that every eight count is made up of eight beats. I'm also saying that we shouldn't talk about any kind of count that has a single unit where you make two actions. This "Ceroc Count" is two beats but you do two different things on a single "Ceroc Count". This has got to confuse people.

[Alan Doyle]

I'm saying that we should call beats "beats". This means that every eight count is made up of eight beats. I'm also saying that we shouldn't talk about any kind of count that has a single unit where you make two actions. This "Ceroc Count" is two beats but you do two different things on a single "Ceroc Count". This has got to confuse people.

I agree, the count needs to correspond to the beats of music. MJ is counted in "Half Time" (2/2 time) instead of "Common Time" (4/4 time). If the Pulse (recurring accents) - (Down Beats & Up Beats) are in 2/2 time then that's fine, but they are in 4/4 time. So counting in half time doesn't correspond to the beats of music & the pulsing of the music.

[DavidB]

My conclusion is that music is such an intrinsic part of dance we should really be talking the same language as musicians when we talk about music.

This means that every eight count is made up of eight beats.

Musicians don't count in eights. They count in fours. Only dancers count in eight. So you have already gone against your own conclusion.

Downbeats, upbeats and counting in eights are all common terms for dancers when talking about music, and personally I'll carry on using them. The other think I like about 'downbeat' and 'upbeat' is that it implies that there is more of a difference between the beats than just a number.

[Andy McGregor]

Musicians don't count in eights. They count in fours. Only dancers count in eight. So you have already gone against your own conclusion.

I'm pretty sure I said something to that effect earlier. What I'm saying is that dancers should count every beat the the musicians put in the music. I know musicians count in 4s. If we count every beat and give instructions for every beat we can't confuse anybody. It's this counting in twos but acting in ones that bugs me.

[Alan Doyle]

I'm pretty sure I said something to that effect earlier. What I'm saying is that dancers should count every beat the the musicians put in the music. I know musicians count in 4s. If we count every beat and give instructions for every beat we can't confuse anybody. It's this counting in twos but acting in ones that bugs me.

Dancers combine 2 x 4/4 measures (a heavy measure and a light measure) to make 8 beats.

If the measures are counted in 4/4 time then there are 4 beats per measure (2 measures to count to 8)
1234 (heavy measure) 5678 (light measure)

If the measure is counted in 2/2 time then there are 2 beats per measure (4 measures to count to 8)
12 (heavy measure) 34 (light measure) 56 (heavy measure) 78 (light measure)

[Gus]

I remember a far more learned teacher than myself (Roger Chin who is no mean Ballroom dancer) making the comments about not being a slave to the beat. I like that. I KNOW there is all the talk about down/upbeat ... but for me I hear a movement and, when I'm up to it, I follow that or try to throw some shapes that reflect what I feel ... OR, for more standard music, I try to put a smile on my partners face instead

With respect to the views expressed here, I've been taught by some of the best teachers MJ has to offer, and none of them have tried to improve my MJ dancing by talking about up/down beats. Having said that, things do change. If DavidB, who I still regard as the finest teacher it has been my honour to be coached by, says its the way to go, I may change my mind.

[David Franklin]

With respect to the views expressed here, I've been taught by some of the best teachers MJ has to offer, and none of them have tried to improve my MJ dancing by talking about up/down beats. Having said that, things do change. If DavidB, who I still regard as the finest teacher it has been my honour to be coached by, says its the way to go, I may change my mind.

To be honest, it's not usually an issue in MJ. Because Ceroc (and most other MJ) is typically taught with this "1 count = 2 musical beats", dancing on the downbeat is pretty much automatic; it is very unusual to see MJ dancers fail to dance on the downbeat.

I think it's still useful to know the terminology, and be aware that there's actually one downbeat and upbeat for every Ceroc count, but it's more a nicety than something fundamental.

[CJ]

OK, I'll throw my hat into the ring.... is from a while back.. Yli and I just letting go at the end of a training session...



I have my own thoughts on it, but critique away...

Thank U.