MJ critique class: would you?

[bigdjiver]

OK, I'll throw my hat into the ring.... is from a while back.. Yli and I just letting go at the end of a training session...



I have my own thoughts on it, but critique away...

Thank U.

Another favourite moving clip I had no hesitation in spreading around the world.


Part of my campaign to get MJ on SCD as a week 1 dance, the place for most people to start their dance journey.

[Gadget]

OK, I'll throw my hat into the ring.... is from a while back.. Yli and I just letting go at the end of a training session...

Not a criticism, but that it's not a "typical" MJ track - there is no obvious/consistent beat, so on or off beat is irrelevant; you are dancing to the music's structure rather than the beat. That makes it difficult to put the movements of the dance into a context where you can offer a critique.

As a dance and how it fits to the music; you teach this stuff - I wouldn't expect it to be lacking and it's not. Trying to look past the musicality and find constructive stuff to say...

• The one thing I noticed is that when you are 'styling', you have a defined placement of your feet and smooth movements; but when you are moving and re-positioning there seems to be a bit of shuffling and small 'setting up' steps - I think it would be more confident and slicker if the movements between moves were as definite as the moves themselves.
  
  
• There is a leg flick/knee lift thing that you seem to add in a lot; I think it's just a preparation for the following movement to add some contrast- it's a bit over-done in my eyes (not the quantity, just the size of movement.)
  
  
• I would also say that you're missing a trick by settling your off-hand in a 'ready' position all the time rather than putting some styling into it - either mirroring Yli's or emphasizing the movement. It's by no means a zombie arm that most folk (inc. me) have, and it's not detracting from any part of the dance in any way - it's used nicely in a couple of hand exchanges, but could add more.
  
  
• Most of your floorcraft is based on the 'cross', but there were a couple of times where you put Yli at 45º to the axis and then simply brought her back onto it - I think that if you're coming off from an angle, then it looks better if you take the follower from that into a turn/rotation so that they travel > 180º around you/the floor's axis.
  
  
• I think you only did it once in this clip, but when breaking from a 2 handed hold (l/r,r/l) into a 1 handed hold, you tend to dip the connecting shoulder and initiate the 'push away' from it; especially if you're turning out at the same time. But I think that this is a CJ-centric gesture that makes your dancing identifiable as your dancing.

[jim]

OK ... nothing to lose. Video is . Knock yourselves out. All critique gratefully received. Please note that I'm only asking for comments on my dancing, not that of my partner. Despite the billing, it was just a tired Gus freestyling before teaching a second lesson.

Gutsy move Gus. It takes a lot to put yourself up for criticism.

So here goes......

I know about these because they are things I do and or I have done.

If you think I'm wrong I apologies.

Posture. There have been some comments on lets say the straightness of your knees or back. I don't think you have a problem with posture.

I think your following your natural inclination to try and meet your follower at her level and sort of ducking down to meet her at her eye line.

People naturally do this when there talking to children; they kneel down to get on their level so they don't 'tower' above them. It helps to meet people as equals. - Unfortunately this doesn’t work in dancing and you must try and dance your full height.

Close the 'Fingers'

Pet hate of mine. When in ballroom hold close the fingers on the shoulder blade. Don’t let them 'splay' out like every one else in Mj. It looks cleaner and it also gives a more solid platform to lead from. Watch any man on strictly; fingers are always closed.

Same again for the leading hand. There's is a rule in Mj that you never put the thumb on the back of a ladies hand instead we all tend to stick it up like where hailing a taxi- 'looks messy in my opinion'.

I know everyone always tells us not to put the thumb on the back of the hand, but that’s about ‘clamping’. You’re not a beginner twisting a ladies arm off so try and put the thumbs down.

Same again leading the turn. Yes you can lead with a finger but the other fingers end up splayed out everywhere like the picture of my hand below (rubbish).

I hope that’s genuiningly helpful to improving the look of your dancing.

Check out the attachment a picture speaks a thousand words

[Alan Doyle]

Check out the attachment a picture speaks a thousand words

I can't open the attachment

[Gus]

Re the DavidBs earlier proposal ... I think I'm going to try the idea out at Hessle. If we can cover the costs of the hall, I think we could get a fair few couples from the club to participate and then use a consolidation of the points emerging to develop a suite of workshops that are tuned to what people need.

I know its bad form to quote yourself but...

Just getting ready to teach our final workshop of the year at Hessle. This one is the only 'moves' workshop ... just a list of moves from which they will pick out the ones they want to learn/improve as a group ... fairly unstructured .. BUT, it should be the ideal opportunity to float the idea of running a critique session early next year. Will see what the interest (or not) is like.

[jim]

ok, not as big as I'd like it but do you see any spayed fingers on the back, or any thumbs sticking up on the hand holds?

[Gus]

ok, not as big as I'd like it but do you see any spayed fingers on the back, or any thumbs sticking up on the hand holds?

Do you see any modern jive dancers there?

[Andy McGregor]

Do you see any modern jive dancers there?

This is a constant bug-bear of mine. We're not defined by a dance. We do a particular dance at a particular time. We can choose to do any dance. And we can choose to learn any dance.

These dancers could do Modern Jive if they liked. I don't think they would start splaying their fingers and sticking their thumbs in the air because they were dancing Modern Jive.

[Gadget]

This is a constant bug-bear of mine. We're not defined by a dance. We do a particular dance at a particular time. We can choose to do any dance. And we can choose to learn any dance.

These dancers could do Modern Jive if they liked. I don't think they would start splaying their fingers and sticking their thumbs in the air because they were dancing Modern Jive.

That argument cuts both ways: the dance is not defined with fingers together or fingers closed. The aesthetics of either version is up to the person viewing.

Personally I find that it depends on where on the back my hand is whether i've got splayed fingers or not - higher up the back, cupping the shoulder-blade and they tend to be closed. Further down on the back/spine muscles and they will tend to be open.
It also depends on the feedback I have from the follower: the more that they 'settle' into my hand and respond to the other contact points, then the more closed I tend to be. With my fingers splayed I have a better feel of the follower's movements - If I have a sensitive follower that responds to fingertips, then I have more options with splayed fingers.

I can't say that I paid the hand-hold too much attention or that it caught my eye.

[jim]

Do you see any modern jive dancers there?

If you don't think that advice can improve your dancing, that's very much you choice.

Sorry I couldn't actually be of help to you.

[tanjive]

Gutsy move Gus. It takes a lot to put yourself up for criticism.

So here goes......

I know about these because they are things I do and or I have done.

If you think I'm wrong I apologies.

Posture. There have been some comments on lets say the straightness of your knees or back. I don't think you have a problem with posture.

I think your following your natural inclination to try and meet your follower at her level and sort of ducking down to meet her at her eye line.

People naturally do this when there talking to children; they kneel down to get on their level so they don't 'tower' above them. It helps to meet people as equals. - Unfortunately this doesn’t work in dancing and you must try and dance your full height.

Close the 'Fingers'

Pet hate of mine. When in ballroom hold close the fingers on the shoulder blade. Don’t let them 'splay' out like every one else in Mj. It looks cleaner and it also gives a more solid platform to lead from. Watch any man on strictly; fingers are always closed.

Same again for the leading hand. There's is a rule in Mj that you never put the thumb on the back of a ladies hand instead we all tend to stick it up like where hailing a taxi- 'looks messy in my opinion'.

I know everyone always tells us not to put the thumb on the back of the hand, but that’s about ‘clamping’. You’re not a beginner twisting a ladies arm off so try and put the thumbs down.

Same again leading the turn. Yes you can lead with a finger but the other fingers end up splayed out everywhere like the picture of my hand below (rubbish).

I hope that’s genuiningly helpful to improving the look of your dancing.

Check out the attachment a picture speaks a thousand words

Close the 'Fingers'

Pet hate of mine. When in ballroom hold close the fingers on the shoulder blade. Don’t let them 'splay' out like every one else in Mj. It looks cleaner and it also gives a more solid platform to lead from. Watch any man on strictly; fingers are always closed.

Same again for the leading hand. There's is a rule in Mj that you never put the thumb on the back of a ladies hand instead we all tend to stick it up like where hailing a taxi- 'looks messy in my opinion'.

I have the same pet hate in Jive about the spead hand on the Ladies' back. It looks so ugly. I must admit I had not noticed or even thought about the thumbs sticking out. A good general observation.

I would think if these are the main points to hightlight on Guy's dancing he is doing 95% of modern jive right as measured against the general populace.

I did read the critics before seeing the video and was very surprised by the video as a result. Given all the stuff on posture I was expecting a disaster. Just a slight lift of the crown of the head to pull the chin up would be enough. No biggie. Certainly no hunchback, or bum out.

My only bug bear was the arm flinging back. I know it is supposed to be styling but to me it adds little. As a demo I can see the reason for adding it, but in general social dance it is unnecessary. There is happy medium between not using your spare arm and flinging it back behind your shoulder line..

Back to the two points on the hands it is such little points often unnoticed that lifts the appearance of a dancer. They are small and subtle but change enough of them and the total look changes. Do people have other hints like that? Perhaps another thread. Modern jive is a messy looking dance (on average), compared to others, as little is mentioned of these ideas. You would be fortunate to find any mentioned consistently outside of privates, workshops. How many people do these, and do them more than 3 times a year? That is perhaps a half dozen opportunities a year to find these things.

[Gus]

If you don't think that advice can improve your dancing, that's very much you choice.

Sorry I couldn't actually be of help to you.

As I said before, I've been most appreciative of the feedback given and hope to learn from it. My comment was directed at the photos illustrating close hands. I'm not sure that this was, in itself, relevant. Personal view entirely.

[jim]

· One of the major things I'd like to see is you body leading the dance as opposed to arm leading it (most people arm lead MJ).

Could someone explain body leading in Mj, west coast or salsa to me?

I've just taken up tango so I get the principle, but I'm not totally sure how it relates to the 'open hold dances'.

If you say coloumbian or cross body lead I might get the idea, but if you say catapult, man-spin or shoulder-slide and then add the phrase body lead, i'm like .

[geoff332]

Could someone explain body leading in Mj, west coast or salsa to me?

It's remarkably simple. Your arms are part of your frame. You lead by primarily moving your frame, not by changing the shape of your frame (ie pulling with your arms).

In a catapult, for example, the lead leads the step back, creating tension between the partners. Next, they lead the follow to move forward by moving their body back (when done well, this is a fairly small movement; mostly a shift in weight). This gets the follow moving and eases the tension, leaving you with connection. The lead then raises their arm, letting the follow step under; the connection leads the follow to turn under. The hand behind stretches out to create tension again. To lead the follow forward, the lead moves their body forward to start the follow moving.

The follow's job is equally important: they have to maintain their own frame and give good flight. That is, once led in a direction, they need to keep going that way until stopped (even if they're turned around in the process).

I've just taken up tango so I get the principle, but I'm not totally sure how it relates to the 'open hold dances'.

The basic principle is identical: you lead from the frame. The hold doesn't change the fact you have a frame; it merely moves the points of connection. It's the same technique that you use in open hold moves in all the latin and ballroom dances.

The point of a body lead is it makes the whole dance a lot smoother, reducing the potential for injuring the follow. Leading from the arms (as is usually taught in ceroc) means that you can lead out of the follow's shoulder - which is likely to dislocate.

[robd]

The point of a body lead is it makes the whole dance a lot smoother, reducing the potential for injuring the follow. Leading from the arms (as is usually taught in ceroc) means that you can lead out of the follow's shoulder - which is likely to dislocate.

I don't think I am arguing with you here Geoff given your caveat ("as is usually taught in ceroc") but I do think it's important to note that yanking is not intrinsic to arm leading. I was not happy in my last private (in WCS but it would apply equally to MJ) to be told I was still leading a lot with the arms and needed to do more from the body. I completely accept that body leading is, in most cases, preferable to arm leading. I can also see in my own dancing where those observations sprang from. I realised that the reason I was so unhappy with them is the fact that arm leading tends to be synonymous with yanking or, at best, with poor leading and whilst I may be guilty of the latter from time to time I don't think I'd ever be accused of the former.

[jive-vee]

I don't think I am arguing with you here Geoff given your caveat ("as is usually taught in ceroc") but I do think it's important to note that yanking is not intrinsic to arm leading. I was not happy in my last private (in WCS but it would apply equally to MJ) to be told I was still leading a lot with the arms and needed to do more from the body. I completely accept that body leading is, in most cases, preferable to arm leading. I can also see in my own dancing where those observations sprang from. I realised that the reason I was so unhappy with them is the fact that arm leading tends to be synonymous with yanking or, at best, with poor leading and whilst I may be guilty of the latter from time to time I don't think I'd ever be accused of the former.

Haha, nope you're certainly not a y......anker

[robd]

Haha, nope you're certainly not a y......anker

Lol, I did think I'd be in trouble if my accuser was dyslexic

[David Franklin]

I don't think I am arguing with you here Geoff given your caveat ("as is usually taught in ceroc") but I do think it's important to note that yanking is not intrinsic to arm leading. I was not happy in my last private (in WCS but it would apply equally to MJ) to be told I was still leading a lot with the arms and needed to do more from the body.

To my understanding, the issue is more that it's more or less impossible to jerk someone (at least without jerking yourself equally badly) with a body lead, whereas with an arm lead it is easy to move your arm in a way that is incompatible with moving your partner smoothly. Which isn't to say that you can't lead smoothly with arm leads.

To be honest, it seems to me that for a dance like MJ (or twisty-turny WCS) it's pretty much impossible to lead many moves without a large degree of armleading.

For example: look at



from 1:40 to 1:55. I'm finding it hard to see even a hint of body leading during most of that sequence.

[geoff332]

...I do think it's important to note that yanking is not intrinsic to arm leading.

Actually, I think it is. That's not to say that every arm lead is going to be a jerk, but it's almost unavoidable for even the best dancers not to occasionally pull too hard, at the wrong angle, or at the wrong time when leading from the arms. It's almost impossible to do so when leading from the body.

Body leading mostly applies to giving the woman the impetus for the move - the direction and power for the move. Spinning is slightly different (and I don't fully understand the differences - it's something I'm still learning). That sequence that David points out is a spinning sequence. The initial lead into it is a step back (hence a body lead); then the spinning sequence goes on for quite a while.

Personally, I do the same thing as you: I still lead from the arms a lot. It's something I'm working on...

[Alan Doyle]

Could someone explain body leading in Mj, west coast or salsa to me?

What is leading?

A lead is not placing your partner anywhere, a lead is an indication of direction. It's not my job as a lead to man handle or jerk my partner around the floor.

Body Leading in Modern Jive e.g. Body Leading a Rock Step.

There is more form and technique when you do a rock step.

How you lead WCS & Salsa is different because both partners are moving in the same direction. When you think of Anchors and Elastic Stretch - only in WCS. As I found out it's not possible to do an anchor in MJ because if you do an anchor you can't rock back as you have nowhere to go.

In Modern Jive the partners move towards each other and then move away from each other. Both partners rock back on beat 1 and replace forward on beat 2.

If I want to lead my partner to move backwards if I do

1) Semi-circle and both step back - This is a NOT a lead, it's a signal
2) Push my hand forward, to make her step back - I'm now ARM leading

If I want to body lead my partner to move backwards, the lead starts with his weight on his right foot and the lady starts with her weight on her left foot.

To give you an analogy...I'm standing in front of a wall, I place my hands on the wall, I'm weighted on my right foot. I bring my centre forward (to compress into the wall - I don't bring the wall towards me, I bring myself towards the wall) I then push myself away from the wall (I don't move the wall away from me) and I use my Right Foot (Sending Foot) by pressing forward into the floor. I move my centre back and my foot follows my frame (I rock back onto my left foot), not placing my weight onto my heel - my heel does not touch the floor. I've now rocked back

The follower has her part to play in this as well (the lady is responsible for matching the resistance - she meets a push with a push and a pull with a pull).

To give you an analogy...I'm holding a pole, my partner is also holding the pole. I use the same technique, I compress into the pole, my partner feels the compression through our connection, and it's her responsibility to match the resistance...so she also compresses into the pole.

I push myself away from the pole (I don't move the pole away from me) and I use my sending foot to bring my centre back and my foot follows my frame, so I rock back onto my left foot. The lady's movement is the reaction to this lead, and this causes the lady to rock back onto her right foot. We are now leveraged.

If I want to body lead the lady to move forward, It is the lady's responsibility to match the resistance. My weighted foot (Sending Foot) is now my left foot and I press back with my left foot into the floor and I bring my centre forward and I replace back onto my right foot (I bring myself back towards the pole, I don't bring the pole towards me - If I move my hand and bring it towards me to make the lady step forwards, I'm ARM leading). The lady's movement is the reaction to this lead, and this causes the lady to replace back onto her left foot.

The lady is now moving forward and I don't need to keep a constant connection between us (to lead the lady all the way through the pattern), just give her an indication of direction until I want to give her change of direction and I reconnect with her.

The lady is responsible for her part and you are responsible for your part, you can only get as much connection from your partner as you can - you can't fix your partner. The best way to help your partner is to do your part correctly.